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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

FB Groups and JK

360 replies

SusannaQueen · 05/12/2021 19:26

Ok, I'm just having a rant and I know FB groups are free to set their own rules.
I've been following a fab FB group, (Home for Peculiar Artists 2), post goes up from admin saying this is a reminder, we don't allow anything Harry Potter or JKR related, if you don't know why then educate yourself. Lots of supportive replies.
I'm on the group in my real name, so I'm not going to weigh in, but it hugely fucks me off, so many people just believing lies with no dissent allowed. Just makes me think this whole thing is insurmountable.

OP posts:
Wavedancer99 · 06/12/2021 01:21

"I'm a woman and I don't have a gender identity."

"I'm a woman" is the part where you're stating your gender identity.

Just because you're basing your gender identity on your physical characteristics, does not mean you do not have one.

TheMarzipanDildo · 06/12/2021 01:21

“Do you think it was "black superiority" to end racial segregation without paying any regard to the "concerns" around letting black people into "white spaces"?“

It’s not the same thing. It’s not like before we had women’s toilets women and men all used the same ones. Women just didn’t go to public toilets. It was called the ‘urinary leash’- a good way of keeping women in the home.

endlesswinter · 06/12/2021 01:22

Do you think it was "black superiority" to end racial segregation without paying any regard to the "concerns" around letting black people into "white spaces"?

When in the UK did this happen?

The UK already gives rights to gender reassignment as well as sex.
What rights do you think trans people are missing?

TheMarzipanDildo · 06/12/2021 01:22

@Wavedancer99

"I'm a woman and I don't have a gender identity."

"I'm a woman" is the part where you're stating your gender identity.

Just because you're basing your gender identity on your physical characteristics, does not mean you do not have one.

No, that’s a statement of sex. 🙄
Wavedancer99 · 06/12/2021 01:24

@endlesswinter

Trans women are biologically male. This why they are trans.

Gender identity is a belief, I have no issues with other people having this belief but I don't share it.
I won't participate in compelled belief of any sort, I don't live in medieval times.

It is your belief that trans women are "men" and you cannot impose that belief on anyone else or expect anyone to discriminate against trans women just because your personal beliefs demand that.
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 06/12/2021 01:25

extract from the Nursing Times

As every nurse is likely to insert a urethral catheter at some point, they need to be surethat they are using a catheter of the correct length.

Catheters are commonly used in acute care, in patients’ own homes, in social care and in nursing homes. They are manufactured in a range of different gauges and three lengths: female length (20-26cm), standard length (40-45cm) and paediatric (30-31cm).

The sex difference in urethral lengths means that, should the shorter female length catheter be used in males, the inflation of the balloon with water occurs within the male urethra rather than the bladder. This can cause severe urethral trauma and result in pain and haemorrhage, or longer term effects such as urethral strictures, retention or incontinence.

Clinical practice differs between healthcare settings. Some areas will stock only standard length catheters and use different gauges for male and female patients. In other areas, the use of shorter female length catheters, which have no clinical imperative, are used for patient dignity issues such as concealing catheters under skirts.

Between January 2006 and March 2009, the National Patient Safety Agency received 114 reports of serious harm from errors where shorter female catheters had been inserted in males. The result was a range of serious outcomes for the patients, including cases of acute renal failure or impaired renal function. Some patients required additional medical or surgical procedures to correct thetrauma.

In April 2009, the NPSA issued a Rapid Response Report (RRR) on the risks of female catheters causing urethral trauma in men, with the aim of making practice safer.

Examples of actual incident reports: Patient catheterised on admission by staff nurse. No urine seen or drained over a few hours. A doctor informed and he was unable to remove the catheter or deflate the balloon. A urologist was then called, who deflated the balloon with a needle through the penis. Large clots were passed. The patient had been catheterised with a female catheter.

Admitted patient had a female length catheter in male patient. The patient wasadmitted with acute renal failure. He wasrecatheterised with an appropriate catheter and conservatively managed. Renal function recovered.

Patient presented to A&E with urine retention. He had had a female catheter fitted the previous day by his district nurse.

He said that she told him she had no male catheters and asked if he minded having a female one.Frances Wood, clinical reviewer, NPSA

But man and woman are social categories, and regarding trans women as "male" and treating them as such is to opposing trans equality, isn't it?

foxgoosefinch · 06/12/2021 01:25

Do you think it was "black superiority" to end racial segregation without paying any regard to the "concerns" around letting black people into "white spaces"?

This is a disingenuous comparison, because you’re equating white people = women here and black people = men.

It not only doesn’t work, but even to get the analogy a more appropriate way round it would be more like ending racial segregation by forcing black people to accept white people coming in to all their churches, clubs and social events and demanding to be treated as black.

But the real reason the analogy doesn’t work is that sex was still there as well in your example. Black women and black men were still treated very differently both before and after legal equality.

I thought you were all supposed to be hyper aware of intersectionality? Your post is not very intersectional at all - very much the reverse, in fact.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 06/12/2021 01:26

@Wavedancer99

"I'm a woman and I don't have a gender identity."

"I'm a woman" is the part where you're stating your gender identity.

Just because you're basing your gender identity on your physical characteristics, does not mean you do not have one.

You keep changing your mind on whether sex= gender or sex =/= gender.
TheMarzipanDildo · 06/12/2021 01:29

And sex and gender must be different things surely or we wouldn’t be encouraging children to take hormones, have surgeries and become life long medical patients, surely?

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 06/12/2021 01:30

If sex and gender are the same thing, then female catheters are appropriate for anyone who says "I am a woman".

endlesswinter · 06/12/2021 01:31

It is your belief that trans women are "men" and you cannot impose that belief on anyone else or expect anyone to discriminate against trans women just because your personal beliefs demand that.

It isn't my belief so much as a biological fact.

Do you not believe in biological sex in any way?

The trans element is that they are a sex living in a different gender.

Otherwise they would just be women, as in adult human female.

Do you genuinely not feel trans women might need different healthcare for example? Healthcare for a male body and vice versa for trans men.
You would expect the sex body elements of healthcare to disappear once people stated they were trans?
This sounds very unsafe for them.

Wavedancer99 · 06/12/2021 01:32

"You keep changing your mind on whether sex= gender or sex =/= gender."

No, you just keep FALSELY conflating the labels "man" and "woman" with sex, when they're both gender categories socially constructed *AROUND" sex.

GreenWhiteViolet · 06/12/2021 01:33

@Wavedancer99

"I'm a woman and I don't have a gender identity."

"I'm a woman" is the part where you're stating your gender identity.

Just because you're basing your gender identity on your physical characteristics, does not mean you do not have one.

As I said, very strange when people can't seem to understand that others are using the word differently.

Earlier you talked about expected, socially mandated roles. That's what I reject. Ever since I was a three-year-old girl being told that I had to wear pink dresses and sit quietly so I didn't get them dirty. That's gender. All that socialised nonsense. Women and girls should have this set of interests and personality traits, and men and boys have a different set. Fighting against all that is what made me a feminist.

I do not have a gender identity. You do not know my inner state of being better than I do.

When I say that I am a woman, I am telling you that I am an adult human female. That's all. Not that I identify with any gender. I actually find it offensive that some people use the word 'woman' to mean 'identifies with feminine social roles'. It's sexist. But you're entitled to do it, just as we can use it to refer to sex.

Wavedancer99 · 06/12/2021 01:34

"Earlier you talked about expected, socially mandated roles. That's what I reject."

No you don't. You are keen on imposing the roles of "man" and "woman" on people.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 06/12/2021 01:34

@Wavedancer99

"You keep changing your mind on whether sex= gender or sex =/= gender."

No, you just keep FALSELY conflating the labels "man" and "woman" with sex, when they're both gender categories socially constructed *AROUND" sex.

Right, so we're using those shorter catheters on anyone who has whatever you deem as a "feminine name" then?
Wavedancer99 · 06/12/2021 01:35

"When I say that I am a woman, I am telling you that I am an adult human female."

I genuinely don't care.

TheMarzipanDildo · 06/12/2021 01:35

@Wavedancer99

"Earlier you talked about expected, socially mandated roles. That's what I reject."

No you don't. You are keen on imposing the roles of "man" and "woman" on people.

‘Roles’ in what sense?Hmm
GreenWhiteViolet · 06/12/2021 01:35

@Wavedancer99

"You keep changing your mind on whether sex= gender or sex =/= gender."

No, you just keep FALSELY conflating the labels "man" and "woman" with sex, when they're both gender categories socially constructed *AROUND" sex.

Again. You believe this about those words. We do not believe it. We are using the terms in different ways. If you can't accept and acknowledge this, even if you disagree with it, the discussion will go nowhere.
Wavedancer99 · 06/12/2021 01:36

"'Roles’ in what sense?Hmm"

The labels. You are imposing unwanted gender labels on people against their will.

Enough4me · 06/12/2021 01:37

XX and XY chromosomes won't dissappear to appease a minority. Neither will JFK lose the majority of her fans.

Facts are facts.

GreenWhiteViolet · 06/12/2021 01:37

@Wavedancer99

"When I say that I am a woman, I am telling you that I am an adult human female."

I genuinely don't care.

Lovely. You're not interested in a good-faith discussion, then. Good to know.
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 06/12/2021 01:38

@Wavedancer99

"When I say that I am a woman, I am telling you that I am an adult human female."

I genuinely don't care.

Yes, we can tell that.

So what is the word for "adult male human" without referring to cultural sex stereotypes then? According to you, the English language doesn't doesn't have one, so we need to invent one.

endlesswinter · 06/12/2021 01:38

The labels. You are imposing unwanted gender labels on people against their will.

No, we are highlighting that sex is an unchanging reality regardless of what gender labels people wish to use.

Wavedancer99 · 06/12/2021 01:38

"You believe this about those words. We do not believe it. We are using the terms in different ways. If you can't accept and acknowledge this, even if you disagree with it, the discussion will go nowhere."

The thing is, you insist on imposing your definitions of terms on trans women, and demand involuntary labeling, categorization, and segregation.

That is unacceptable.

Wavedancer99 · 06/12/2021 01:40

@Enough4me

XX and XY chromosomes won't dissappear to appease a minority. Neither will JFK lose the majority of her fans.

Facts are facts.

Chromosome do not define biological sex, unless you believe DSD women born with XY chromosomes must henceforth be referred to as male.