Zara - male bodies in female changing room

[BoreOfWhabylon]

An unimpressed Editor-at-large of the MoS was also there

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10275757/CHARLOTTE-GRIFFITHS-facing-dilemma.html

Have fun I guess, this seems like a game for you and I made the mistake of thinking you were serious.

No, you made the mistake of thinking we came down in the last rain shower.

All of the 'bingo' comments are demonstrating your lack of originality. We've heard it all before.

And what if you have a buggy and a toddler with you. Yo can’t keep curtains closed

Or are we just meant to stay at home now so men can go wherever they want

Batshit crazy

Yep it’s pretty easy to tell a butch lesbian from a man

@YourVagesty

Have fun I guess, this seems like a game for you and I made the mistake of thinking you were serious.

No, you made the mistake of thinking we came down in the last rain shower.

All of the 'bingo' comments are demonstrating your lack of originality. We've heard it all before.

The fact you’re accusing me of unoriginality is amusing. This entire thread-nay, topic- is a case study in logical fallacies committed by people who aren’t that bright but still trying to defend indefensible positions.

I never understand this.
Did women and girls suddenly demand mixed sex toilets. Mixed sex changing rooms. Mixed sex sport. Mixed sex jails. 🤷‍♀️

@Theeyeballsinthesky

Yep it’s pretty easy to tell a butch lesbian from a man

From that photo I can’t tell if second from left is xx or XY. Genuinely. I’m guessing xy only because I think you are trying to compare the two people on the left to each other to show one is female and one isn’t in spite of both wearing masculine clothes but maybe I am misunderstanding you.

There have been extremely butch women, lesbian and otherwise, since the 20s.

If and it's a fairly big if since this is only ever thrown around by TAs in the past couple of years, it happens at all, you know what?

It's happening because female people can no longer trust that male people are not entering their spaces. And they are voicing that they are uncomfortable, angry, that they do not consent. They now have to worry about who is who, because male people have created the situation where there's no trust in female spaces. This goes with the 'you probably won't know they're male' kind of argument - females never used to have to care what a female person looked like before males wanted what they wanted and took it without the faintest care or consideration for females.

The answer is not for females to give up, lay down and let male people and anyone who looks male do whatever floats their boat without conscience or consequences. Because that would be sexist batshittery, wouldn't it?

The answer is for males to respect females and their boundaries. Easy fix. If you're worried about butch women having a bad time then there's your answer!

"aren't that bright"
Yep, the stupid mummies comment.
Does that come along with "echo chamber" or have we had that one already?

Anyway, speaking as a tall woman with a large nose, I don't think the answer to me occasionally getting misgendered is to let men into the women's changing rooms.

I see Cordy's still making a fuss and deflecting, but not yet found the time to answer my direct question :D
Funny that.

@endlesswinter

I actually agree with *@Cordyceps* I have had butch friends questioned in single sex spaces. But this doesn't mean single sex spaces aren't needed. I also think that the questioning is more likely to increase if males are allowed into female spaces because females will have raised anxiety.

Seconded

[quote Cordyceps]@DoubleTweenQueen I’m not your dancing monkey, you patronising twit. I asked you to clarify your stupid question but you weren’t able to do that so I moved on.[/quote]
Do you think it was appropriate for the woman in the story to be without a private cubicle, in the women’s changing room, because two men were each taking up a private cubicle each, so necessitating her to change in the communal women’s area, then be slightly put out that said two blokes caught her out in her underwear? Do you think that’s acceptable or not?

A single word would do.

But I imagine you would say it wasn’t a female changing room, the communal area wasn’t, so it never happened, and the whole thing was made up.

In your own time, or not at all. As you wish.

Cordyceps
I’ve obviously stumbled into the wrong internet box

This thread is in the area of the board that you have stated (within the past week I think, but I cba to go and check; you really are not that important) you have "muted", whatever the fuck that means. Maybe you need to check your settings so that you will in future neither have it inflicted on you nor inflict yourself on it.

For the record, I habitually dress in jeans and a jacket and have several times had it pointed out to me (by men) that I am going into the wrong lavatory as I head for the ladies in a pub; I have found that turning and grinning, and saying, "It's all right, I'm female," works wonders. Strangely enough, it neither offends nor traumatises me if men make mistakes about what sex I am, nor if women do -- but the latter has never happened. Maybe women are just better at telling automatically what sex someone is by other means than clothing stereotypes; it's a more important survival characteristic for them than for men.

I can't believe it's taken you 5 hours to remember your poor daughter's butch girlfriend @Cordyceps

I would have thought you'd have considered the appalling behaviour she's been subjected to by other women hours and hours ago. I mean it's pretty out there.

[Poster's daughter's girlfriend] is regularly told to leave the women’s toilets and has been threatened by women that they will go get their male partners to drag her out of the toilet by force if she doesn’t leave. I also have a friend who is a tall woman with a large nose (and four naturally birthed children that came from her own vagina) who has been asked to leave female spaces by people who refuse to believe she is female.

That post is a load of nonsense.

26,000 likes on the top comment - never seen numbers like that before. Hope Zara's press team are watching...

I’ve never heard of a woman told to leave women’s loos or threatened. Of course that doesn’t mean it never happens - but frequently to the same woman?

Thing is, very very very few woman would be genuinely mistaken for a male. There’s just something - the way they stand, move, the voice the mannerisms, face structure, lack of Adam’s apple... These would give them away as a woman even if a second look was needed.

I was called ‘son’ a few times when I was a teenager. I lived - thought it was very funny (hey this was in the 80s). I’m also tall (for a Scot) and that was never an issue either.

Just imagine how it would be if only males had respected female’s boundaries from the start.

And then no ‘butch’ woman would be asked to clarify if they were in the right area.

The fact that people use this ‘what about’ is an ill thought out ‘gotcha’.

And the amazing reaction of one supposedly butch looking woman recently is also a great lesson for those using this as a what about. She turned and thanked the person who asked her! Thanked them for their care in making sure the ladies toilets were safe for others.

Of course, the voice and the extra time looking at this remarkable women also assured her questioner that she was in fact female.

And as we constantly say, what type of male continues to use single sex spaces knowing that they make females uncomfortable by being there.

(Thank you LB, by the way. What a classy, classy move!!)

Clothes shops are hastening their own demise doing this. The main advantage of shopping in actual shops is to try stuff on and not have the faff of posting stuff back if it doesn't fit/ doesn't suit you. If changing rooms are full of male bodied people and women and girls don't feel comfortable in them so don't try stuff on then they may as well order online.
I have bought male clothes before and I take them to the female changing room. We are always being told we exaggerate the threat of males in changing rooms. In that case why doesn't everyone male use the male room if men are safe and non scary? Especially men who look like men. There is no logic to it. It's all about making women feel uncomfortable

I am also surprised by the comments of someone who seems to have not even read the article.

It says very clearly that the woman even checked with staff after coming out and seeing the men the first time. And was assured it was women only. Then after a while went back in to try on a new top to find the ‘confirmed by staff’ female changing room to have no cubicles so stripped of to try on the top.

And it was very clear that the cubicles had curtains and not doors and certainly not lockable. And certainly not ‘monitored’ by staff!!

@2Rebecca

Clothes shops are hastening their own demise doing this. The main advantage of shopping in actual shops is to try stuff on and not have the faff of posting stuff back if it doesn't fit/ doesn't suit you. If changing rooms are full of male bodied people and women and girls don't feel comfortable in them so don't try stuff on then they may as well order online. I have bought male clothes before and I take them to the female changing room. We are always being told we exaggerate the threat of males in changing rooms. In that case why doesn't everyone male use the male room if men are safe and non scary? Especially men who look like men. There is no logic to it. It's all about making women feel uncomfortable

That's a good point. And another poster made the point about teenaged girls in groups spending pocket money buying clothes. Some of those girls won't be able to, now, which is very sad.

Yes, I remember being so excited on my first clothes shopping trip with my friends. We were buying clothes for a Xmas party.

Having males around would have destroyed that experience.

@AlfonsoTheUnrepentant

[Poster's daughter's girlfriend] is regularly told to leave the women’s toilets and has been threatened by women that they will go get their male partners to drag her out of the toilet by force if she doesn’t leave. I also have a friend who is a tall woman with a large nose (and four naturally birthed children that came from her own vagina) who has been asked to leave female spaces by people who refuse to believe she is female.

That post is a load of nonsense.

Course it is.

Apart from anything else, women don't tend to threaten someone they think is male!! That is the whole point of not wanting men in our spaces, - that we can't get them out.

Tedious nonsense Cordyceps that we've all heard a million times before, but funnily enough, only once men started to demand access to women's privacy.

You do know, don't you, that there are at least 6,500 genetic differences between men and women? Tall women with big noses don't look like men 😁.

I mean really, it's so daft. How does it even work in your head? Visual ambiguity means we need mixed spaces???

It doesn't. It's a barrel scraping exercise that we've seen a million times before and reject unequivocally.

No thanks.

The fact you’re accusing me of unoriginality is amusing. This entire thread-nay, topic- is a case study in logical fallacies committed by people who aren’t that bright but still trying to defend indefensible positions.

It's rare to see such self-awareness from a trans activist. Well done, you!

Just in case you haven't understood the point, though, I'm going to explain it in really simple language for the slow of understanding:

Women's changing rooms exist so that women can get changed in private, away from men.

Men are not allowed in women's changing rooms.

This is still the case, even if a man really, really wants to be in the women's changing room.

Understand? Or do I need to break it down even further?