Zara - male bodies in female changing room

[BoreOfWhabylon]

An unimpressed Editor-at-large of the MoS was also there

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10275757/CHARLOTTE-GRIFFITHS-facing-dilemma.html

@EricCartmansUnderpants

It's already inclusive by segregating by sex. If it needs to go further than that then it should be mixed sex instead of men's and keep the women's just for women. I dont suppose many women would want to use the men's, but it's an option if they want to share with men. Better this way than letting the men into the women's.

It’s not always. Common sense would tell you that a ‘changing room’ in the lingerie dept will be for women - but in reality shops like Zara and M&S and JL have done this with the small print (that isn’t there) that says ‘use whichever room you want - inclooosivity, innit?’). When you start to look... I think GAP and H&M also do this.

Well they need to stop. Deceiving women and teen girls into thinking that the changing rooms they are using are female only. Then ushering men in to the room after women have started to undress? This is sick. Grotesque.

Wonder if many women try to use the men’s. There was a non binary (female body) who tried to use a M&S changing room (Aberdeen?) in the men’s dept and was told that there was a ladies elsewhere.

Of course this ruined their shopping and they went home crying (and I’m going to be understanding here - they were buying a shirt for a funeral so may have been feeling a bit sensitive to state with).

However it did make the newspaper and a grovelling apology and promises were issues by the store.

But a woman who is standing in her undies when a man ‘accidentally’ pulls back the flimsy curtain gets told to suck it up buttercup and not to upset the other ladies??? Or on the case of a gym, banned.

@KittenKong

I'm struggling to feel sympathy for her because it is shit like this that has got us into this mess.

Just use the changing room for the sex that you are. That's it.

I’m a soft bugger though although I’m sure it was a shirt... I wouldn’t try on a shirt.

I'm questioning a woman who choose to publish an article about why men should not be allowed in women's changing rooms. but did she speak to the people involved to find out why the woman's changing room was most appropriate for them? She judged and assumed.

AKA "You hold the maxim that these were men and the onus is on you to prove it."

As @femmeloves twitter says:
"But this is actually a trick. One thing that deconstruction gets right is that meaning proliferates. So what this question does is ask you to put forward more maxims, then like whack a mole, your annoying queer theorist can ask you to defend each of them. There's no winning."

and

"There is almost no point in arguing with a person using these tactics, because they are not playing the "rational argument" game."

@FindTheTruth

I like the sound of what you say but am not up to following it completely.

Would you mind putting it forward again in a simpler way?

Thanks

@KittenKong

This one?

metro.co.uk/2020/02/20/trans-shopper-banned-using-mens-changing-room-ms-12272268/amp/

They/them seem confused. Myla was born female but tells the shop assistant “I’m not female”. Okaaaay.

Yup that the one.

Me (mid teens) circa 1986 in Glasgow health food store
Little old lady ‘Scuse me son, where’s the (whatever, can’t remember)’
Me (laughing) - ‘I’m a girl!’
Her - ‘eeeee - so ye ur’ hahahahha, he just cannae tell these days can he?’
Me - ‘nope! Here’s your (whatever). Do you need anything else?’
Her - ‘no thanks hen...’

So mistaken for a boy AND someone who worked in the store.

@EricCartmansUnderpants

It's already inclusive by segregating by sex. If it needs to go further than that then it should be mixed sex instead of men's and keep the women's just for women. I dont suppose many women would want to use the men's, but it's an option if they want to share with men. Better this way than letting the men into the women's.

That has been proposed time and time again. Transwomen will use women's private spaces because it gives them validation. They won't use mixed gender because it doesn't.

I often to be always mistaken for a bloke in my early twenties - cropped hair, no make up, wearing jeans and work boots, out drinking pints with an otherwise all male group.

Funnily enough, I never felt the need to cry and wrote angry letters demanding apologies.

I'm questioning a woman who choose to publish an article about why men should not be allowed in women's changing rooms. but did she speak to the people involved to find out why the woman's changing room was most appropriate for them?

Who cares? They're men, and they should be in the men's changing rooms. I don't care what their sob story is or their personal journey or blah-fucking-blah. Just get in the men's changing rooms.

That has been proposed time and time again. Transwomen will use women's private spaces because it gives them validation. They won't use mixed gender because it doesn't

I know. Which is why the law needs to be applied and enforced. Because otherwise these men will carry on doing this. And the reason it doesn't get applied because those in positions of policy power are choosing to ignore the equality act and offer women up, without their consent, to men. I suppose change is happening bit by bit. But this should never have been able to happen in the first place. Complacent population I suppose. Myself included. I didn't know of the extent to which this is happening.

I'm questioning a woman who choose to publish an article about why men should not be allowed in women's changing rooms. but did she speak to the people involved to find out why the woman's changing room was most appropriate for them?

There IS no justifiable reason for men to ride roughshod over women's boundaries. And I honestly cannot understand the mindset that truly believes that such a thing could be framed as 'appropriate'.

Unless, of course, you mean as a verb.

appropriate
adjective
/əˈprəʊprɪət/
suitable or proper in the circumstances.
"this isn't the appropriate time or place"

verb
/əˈprəʊprɪeɪt/
1.
take (something) for one's own use, typically without the owner's permission.

I'm questioning a woman who choose to publish an article about why men should not be allowed in women's changing rooms. but did she speak to the people involved to find out why the woman's changing room was most appropriate for them?

Its irrelevant

Men's feelings do not trump women's right to safety, dignity and privacy nor their religious beliefs in many cases.

HTH.

but did she speak to the people involved to find out why the woman's changing room was most appropriate for them?

The woman's changing room is never going to be the most appropriate option for men.

I'm questioning a woman who choose to publish an article about why men should not be allowed in women's changing rooms. but did she speak to the people involved to find out why the woman's changing room was most appropriate for them?

Do you honestly not get the sexism in this? The codependency?

No. Women are not everyone's mum. It's not up to women to immediately take responsibility for people born male, worry about who they feel they are and what they feel they need and whether their needs are being met properly -

female spaces are for females, who have all these needs too .

People born male are not more important or valuable than someone born biologically female at birth. Being born female does not make you every male person's mum. There are many solutions for these male people that meet their needs without trampling over females in the process, and respecting both groups equally.

You'll find that most male people would much, much rather go for the trampling based options, but again: sexism and expected codependency is a really, really big problem for those born female.

Which makes it all rather silly when the whole argument for male people in female spaces is that sex isn't really a thing and no one knows what sex anyone is. (Until deciding who matters and who is worthless/beneath consideration, then apparently it's easy!)

Men can just do.
Women have to justify.

No one ever talks about rushing into the female spaces to speak to the people involved and find out what is most appropriate for them. In fact arguments would be lined up in advance (as they have been on this thread) as to why anything those female people say is irrelevant and no excuse to say no to or inconvenience a male anyway.

Speaks bloody volumes.

I'm questioning a woman who choose to publish an article about why men should not be allowed in women's changing rooms. but did she speak to the people involved to find out why the woman's changing room was most appropriate for them?

It's a newspaper article, not a research paper.

did she speak to the people involved to find out why the woman's changing room was most appropriate for them?

How would that conversation even go?

Editor for Mail: Excuse me? I notice that you are two males standing with me in between you talking over the top of me while I am here in my bra. Could you please tell me why you think that this female changing room is appropriate for you?

Also Editor: Could you please also tell me why you think it is appropriate behaviour to talk over the top of me while you can see I am very uncomfortable standing here with you? Please tell me why you did not move away as soon as you saw I was here in my bra?

I am quite sure being a woman of words that she would be very polite and articulate despite being incredibly uncomfortable. Remember, she had already been uncomfortable because she asked staff members to confirm it was 'female' only before going back in.

And really. You are right pp. Women should always ask for clarification. Just like I am sure those males asked for clarification and took notice of the answer that the changing room was females only. Oh wait...

@334bu

DB178 *I'm not gas lighting woman I'm questioning a woman who choose to publish an article about why men should not be allowed in women's changing rooms. but did she speak to the people involved to find out why the woman's changing room was most appropriate for them?*

I wonder if this poster ever reads back what they have written?

What a load of codswallop!

Oh, I'm really go to walk up to two six foot persons whilst only wearing a bra and jeans and asking them - whilst ignoring the baseball bat online imagery and threats of violence and rape - 'could you let me know why you feel this changing room is the most appropriate for you?'. Just like I wouldn't walk up to confront two men perving over women at the pub - it's not going to happen because they're likely to punch me in the face. I'd speak to the staff quietly so as not to attract retribution and most likely leave with another place added to the list of places I don't feel safe in.

‘Excuse me, this is the ladies...’

Yes how will that go down...

Are you talking to me?
I’m allowed here BY LAW
How dare you! I am a woman!!!
Bigot! Transphobe! I’m being attacked!
I feel safe here
It says I can use whichever room I feel comfortable
Shut the *** up birch and etc etc etc

Women will be told to shut up.

@NeverDropYourMoonCup

Or she could have written an article highlighting problems with changing rooms without blaming individuals. Ie challenging shops etc to do better and be more inclusive. And I agree I wouldn't have approached customers in that way either although I don't assume men are out to attack but I just wouldn't have thought to at the time. Also I wouldn't write a public article complaining about individuals without knowing the full story.

What's to know

They were male and shouldn't have been there.

What's so difficult to understand