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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Penn’s Lia Thomas breaks 200/500 Free records in meet with Princeton, Cornell

447 replies

Helleofabore · 30/11/2021 07:51

USA women’s freestyle swimming records were broken this weekend!!!

To all those who keep using the ‘scale’ argument to justify inclusion of males in female sport, tell us again how it takes more than one male competing in female sport to significantly and negatively impact that sport?

I am very happy to hear your well thought out and evidenced reasoning.

swimswam.com/penns-lia-thomas-breaks-200-500-free-records-in-meet-with-princeton-cornell/

Penn’s Lia Thomas blasted the number one 200 free time and the second-fastest 500 free time in the nation on Saturday, breaking Penn program records in both events. She swept the 100-200-500 free individual events and contributed to the first-place 400 free relay in a tri-meet against Princeton and Cornell in her home pool.

Sounds wonderful until you realise that for their first three years competing in the competition, they competed as a male.

twitter.com/coachblade/status/1465517693386121217?s=21

Coach Linda Blade’s tweet says :

Well of course women’s records are being smashed!

Lia competed as male for first three years in #NCAA.

This is not right!

We need to return to #SexBasedSports!

#SexNotGender to preserve fairness for female athletes.

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AlfonsoTheUnrepentant · 01/12/2021 10:45

Lia.

Penn’s Lia Thomas breaks 200/500 Free records in meet with Princeton, Cornell
Ekofisk · 01/12/2021 10:53

Lia in 2018.

Penn’s Lia Thomas breaks 200/500 Free records in meet with Princeton, Cornell
Ekofisk · 01/12/2021 11:01

Looking at Lia’s history pre becoming Lia, they were a decent swimmer - in 2018/19 ranked 100th in the USA, 87th in the NCAA, 4th in the Ivy and 2nd at Penn.

Good, but never going to set the world on fire as a male.

TedImgoingmad · 01/12/2021 11:59

Copied below is Swim England's trans competitor policy, for anyone interested. The PDF I copied this from says last updated March 2015.

I would be concerned that this policy is wide open to abuse and undue influence from lobby groups like Stonewall. The decision panel make up is described as follows:

The Panel shall comprise of three representatives appointed by Swim England’s Sport Operations Committee. The Panel’s appointees shall not necessarily be members of the aforementioned Board but shall always include amongst its numbers one medical and one legal representative, both of whom shall possess appropriate expertise.

One legal, one medical with "appropriate expertise". What does "appropriate expertise" mean? It could mean one Harrop and one Fox Killer, if we are talking about the "expertise" of gender theory. I'm sure lobbies like Stonewall would be pushing their own people forward, pressing for SE to give equal, if not more, weight to the supposed social need to allow trans competitors to compete versus the purely physical and measurable medicine based considerations - although there are enough Webberley type and Joanna Harper type medics around to skew the fact based data too.

The solution: Keep to strict biological male and female categories, and accept that life is tough sometimes. The vast, vast, vast, vast majority of human beings will not be able to compete in sport at anything above basic primary school sports level. There are vast class and race inequalities in sports like swimming that have not been addressed at all with any degree of adequacy. Giving a leg up to the male bodied, white children of middle class parents, who have the resources to negotiate the system to further advantage their children, is a travesty.

Swim England Policy

Trans competitors

Swim England is responsible for regulating within its jurisdiction the participation of persons as competitors in an event or events of the following sports: swimming (all disciplines), synchronised swimming, water polo and diving.

These are gender-affected sports as defined by legislation, in that the physical strength, stamina or physique of average persons of one sex would put them at a disadvantage to average persons of the other sex as competitors in an event of one of the above-mentioned sports.

Accordingly, Swim England adopted a policy on transsexual competitors in November 2011 for two reasons: firstly, in order to ensure equal and fair competition in the above-mentioned sports; and secondly, to ensure the safety at all times of all competitors. This policy has now been updated based on the helpful guidance from the Sports Council Equality Group.

DEFINITIONS

For the purposes of this Policy:

Trans (or transgender) is an umbrella term used by individuals whose gender identity and/or gender expression differs from their birth sex. The term includes, but is not limited to transsexual persons and others who define as gender variant. Trans persons may or may not choose to alter their bodies hormonally and/or surgically and in such cases the Panel shall have regard to fair competition and safety. Transsexual persons have the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person’s sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex
Competitor denotes an entrant to open competitions promoted by or on behalf of the Swim England.

POLICY

1. All enquiries regarding participation by a trans person as a competitor shall be passed for determination to Swim England’s Equality and Participation Panel (“the Panel”).

2. The Panel shall comprise of three representatives appointed by Swim England’s Sport Operations Committee. The Panel’s appointees shall not necessarily be members of the aforementioned Board but shall always include amongst its numbers one medical and one legal representative, both of whom shall possess appropriate expertise.

3. The trans person (and their legal guardian if under 18) shall be asked to permit his or her GP and/or medical consultant and the Gender Recognition Panel (if applicable) to disclose sufficient information to the Panel (including such other information, records or other material as Swim England may require from time to time). The Panel should also be permitted to go back to the GP and/or medical consultant to clarify or verify any details. This will ensure that the Trans person is managing the information that is shared with the Panel and will assist in ensuring the individual’s right to privacy.

4. All reasonable steps shall be taken by Swim England to enable the trans person to submit appropriate evidence to the Panel. This shall include Swim England remaining open to further evidence being submitted at a later date.

5. The Panel shall have regard of the following hormone based requirements for enquiries from transsexual persons:

Non-contact disciplines

5.1 Any transsexual male (female-to-male transsexual person). For non-contact sports there is a general consensus that transsexual men and boys, even after a considerable period of time on testosterone therapy, do not usually have an unfair physical advantage over other men and boys.

5.2 Transsexual woman – over 16 and post-puberty (male to female transsexual person). The information disclosed allows the Panel to ascertain that hormone therapy has been administered in a verifiable manner or ascertain the date of her gonadectomy. This information will need to demonstrate that the hormone treatment will have reduced her blood-measured testosterone level to that of the affirmed gender for an appropriate length of time and that this has minimised any potential gender-related advantage. Hormone-related treatment must be verified annually to ensure its validity.

5.3 Transsexual girl – under 16 and post-puberty. The transsexual girl and her legal guardian should be asked to permit the Panel to undertake an individual case-by- case review because there can be considerable differences in their strength and status. This will involve a review meeting with the transsexual girl, her advocate (e.g. parent) and a representative of the Panel. The review meeting will be to agree a way forward for the young person based on their individual circumstances and to manage everybody’s expectations with due consideration to fairness and safety.

5.4 Transsexual girl – pre-puberty. There should be no gender related advantage as she will largely have escaped the virilising effects of testosterone on her adolescent development. The risk of injury to competitors would be minimal and would be comparable with competitions where all competitors were birth sex female. The transsexual girl and her legal guardian should be asked to disclose sufficient information to the Panel to allow it to ascertain the stage of pubertal development that the girl has reached. This is subject to annual review.

Disciplines with contact or with the potential for contact

5.5 Transsexual male – over 16 (female-to-male transsexual person). The information disclosed allows the Panel to ascertain that hormone therapy has been administered in a verifiable manner. This information will need to demonstrate that the male blood- measured testosterone levels are within the range of his affirmed gender for an appropriate length of time and that this has minimised any potential gender-related
advantage. Hormone-related treatment must be verified annually to ensure its validity.

5.6 Transsexual boy – under 16 and post-puberty. The transsexual boy and his legal guardian should be asked to permit the Panel to undertake an individual case-by- case review as also set out in clause 5.3.

5.7 Transsexual boy – pre-puberty. There should be no gender related advantage and the risk of injury to competitors would be minimal and comparable with competitions where all competitors are birth gender male. The transsexual boy and his legal guardian should be asked to disclose sufficient information to the Panel to allow it to ascertain the stage of pubertal development that the boy has reached. This is subject to annual review.

5.8 Transsexual woman – over 16 and post-puberty (male-to-female transsexual person). The Panel shall follow clause 5.2.

5.9 Transsexual girl – under 16 and post-puberty. The Panel shall follow clause 5.3.

5.10 Transsexual girl –pre-puberty. The Panel shall follow clause 5.4.

6. All evidence shall be properly and fairly considered by the Panel.

7. All aspects of the matter (including but not limited to communication, correspondence and evidence) shall at all times be handled sensitively by the Swim England with due respect to the requirement of confidentiality and the right to privacy.

8. A transsexual person shall not be entitled to compete in his or her acquired gender until such time as he or she has provided evidence that the applicable criteria set out above has been met to the reasonable satisfaction of the Panel.

9. Once the Panel is satisfied then verification of identity should be no more than is required of any other competitor.

INITIAL ENQUIRIES
All enquiries regarding participation by a trans person as a competitor should at the first instance be made to the Department of Legal Affairs by email at [email protected].

PermanentTemporary · 01/12/2021 12:33

Hah. Is my response to that policy. Slipping and sliding between gender and sex over paragraph after paragraph, to get to the key point, to actually write down, that 'woman' is defined by your current blood testosterone. That's it. There is no other possible difference observable in human beings that is relevant to SWIMMING. Swimming. Of all sports.

Who wrote that farrago of lies?

NecessaryScene · 01/12/2021 16:20

Emma Hilton has done the data analysis. He's over 4 Shock standard deviations above the female field. Gap between him and the first woman is about the same as that between first and last woman. He's slap in the middle of the male field.

(He was apparently very competitive before "transition", with a personal best faster than the winner of the male race).

twitter.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1466044767561830405

"I'd like to know if the IOC would consider this advantage "disproportionate", as per 2021 guidelines on inclusion of transgender women in female categories."

Penn’s Lia Thomas breaks 200/500 Free records in meet with Princeton, Cornell
PermanentTemporary · 01/12/2021 17:39

In a way, focusing on individuals is pointless. This is a dumb policy. We know it, we all know it. What hairstyle Lia likes to wear and her brave struggles to find a plus size Olympic level women's swimming kit are of less than zero interest. What still fascinates me is the manoeuvring of Dr Richard Thing, relatively new at the IOC, who sounded like he was going to take action on the IOC'S ridiculous policy on this but somehow hasn't. Was it just PR that he stepped up to take some of the heat off poor, shrinking violet Laurel Hubbard? Where is Lord Coe and how come nobody doorsteps him?

aliasundercover · 01/12/2021 20:49

So is the name pronounced “Lee-ah” or “Liar”?

Ekofisk · 01/12/2021 21:33

@aliasundercover

So is the name pronounced “Lee-ah” or “Liar”?
I believe it’s one of those strange names like Cholmondeley and Mainwaring and is actually pronounced “Cheat”.
MrGHardy · 01/12/2021 22:06

(He was apparently very competitive before "transition", with a personal best faster than the winner of the male race).

If I read that graph right, he was somewhat faster than the winner of the D2/B M, i.e. the men's second division section B. Which goes along with the above that says he was ranked 87th in the NCAA (4th in Ivy, though, they must suck at swimming).

NecessaryScene · 02/12/2021 06:47

In a way, focusing on individuals is pointless.

True, but we're being asked to by the IOC. Case-by-case. Sigh.

Helen Saxby pointed out the problem here on Twitter, talking to Jon Pike:

twitter.com/helensaxby11/status/1466168202577301505

The case by case approach tries to be kind and ends up being cruel because it focuses on the individual every time. I've never understood this - it's much better for everyone to have a clear rule that can't be taken personally.

Which goes along with the above that says he was ranked 87th in the NCAA (4th in Ivy, though, they must suck at swimming).

Yes, I spent a while figuring out those markings, and also decided that their teams must be far from top tier.

Another thing I noticed is that the chart is sort of begging the question, by not including Thomas in the female field (nor the male, I think). That +4.2SD is a bit overstated as a result.

It's not wrong, but there should be 2 comparators. You could have a similar diagram where O'Leary is separated out and compared with the mean+SD of the remaining females. She might be nearly +2SD?

And you can have a diagram with Thomas included in the females. That would be ~+3.8 SD (guess)- still huge - and the mean unnaturally high.

So then you can compare isolated (Thomas +4.2SD, O'Leary ~+1.8SD) or included (Thomas ~+3.8SD, O'Leary ~+1.4SD). Still clear that this is a very different sort of advantage.

Ekofisk · 02/12/2021 22:54

Reported by the Fail today (shame they got their yards and metres mixed up - as did Kirsti Miller).

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10266627/Fury-unfair-competition-trans-swimmer-smashing-womens-records.html

Helleofabore · 03/12/2021 07:06

Kristi Miller seems to now be a inclusivity educator. I wonder if they are no longer involved in prisons?

Either way, Miller had no credibility considering they cannot (will not) even answer why they, in their 50s, are the oldest by far in their rugby team. Surprisingly while most women that age are going through menopause or have already and would not be risking their bones. Or the fact that skin is thinning with menopause too, I cannot imagine the constant injury from tackles at this age. And who has the energy to keep up with 20-30 year olds when you are getting compromised sleep.

Although, Miller does know about competing at elite levels in aquatic sports as a man of course.

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Helleofabore · 03/12/2021 07:38

On another note, I noticed a certain cycling mum say on Twitter that she reported one of the prominent feminists (unless it was Denis K) to the police after that feminist discussed their male child’s transition and the prospect of them competing in the women’s category.

It was in response to this tweet

twitter.com/rummlie/status/1465084456000278528?s=12

listing Denis K, Julie Bindel, Doc Stock, Jane Clare Jones, Dr Emma Hilton, Maya and Allison Bailey in an image.

Then a deleted tweet. Then this one referring to one of the list.

twitter.com/sullivansa1/status/1466109061729067022?s=21

sullivansa1 tweeted

I'll help in that regard.

As an eg, one of these was involved in targeting my daughter, when she came out as a trans woman in Sport. I requested the post be removed but that was ignored. Unfortunately we had to report as a hate incident to the police. Happy to discuss.

18:16 1/12/21

Does anyone remember what would have tweeted that was worthy of hate? Considering the low bar set with Ceri & Marian, I hate the idea that someone like Dr Emma Hilton could have numerous hate crimes recorded for fighting for women’s sports.

I hope that cycling mum doesn’t come back to MN anytime soon.

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CatsOperatingInGangs · 03/12/2021 08:02

Another person using the police as their own personal enforcement squad. It’s despicable behaviour.

CatsOperatingInGangs · 05/12/2021 04:57

www.outkick.com/transgender-penn-swimmer-sets-another-record-has-fastest-female-500m-time-in-the-nation/

14 seconds faster than the runner up!

GonadTheGaul · 05/12/2021 08:16

And we're expected to believe that testosterone has no effect on performance, according to the IOC. Although the IOC position on that must be a bit of a blow to those people desperately saying that performance of male athletes reduces after transition so it's completely fair for them to be in the female category.

Helleofabore · 05/12/2021 09:19

This is capturing lots of attention then. Good. That quote being used will look ridiculous by the end of the swim season.

I am looking forward to the usual posters though telling us that allowing males into female sports categories will not mean they will dominate because the numbers will be so low!!! Of course, some people like to play with established meanings of commonly used words so they conveniently forget the other sense of dominance here.

So far, they have avoided this thread though. I welcome the discussion though.

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borntobequiet · 05/12/2021 09:41

The Mail’s reporting and use of images is spot on.

(It’s interesting that so many get metres and yards confused. People I’ve taught think that miles are metric units because they sound as though they should be.)

gailforce1 · 07/12/2021 11:16

The Daily Mail is covering this AGAIN today. Please could someone share the article to this page. Thank you.
Over 700 comments under the article.

Zeugma · 07/12/2021 11:41

New article

They seem to have pasted it onto the previous one, helpfully, so the existing info is included.

gailforce1 · 07/12/2021 13:08

Thank you Zeugma for sharing.
Interesting that many comments recognise that this could be the end of women's sport and that there is little point in encouraging their daughters to have sporting ambitions.

gailforce1 · 07/12/2021 16:25

Piers Morgan now challenging men in women's sport in the Daily Mail on line.

Could anyone share or perhaps start a new thread?