Penn’s Lia Thomas breaks 200/500 Free records in meet with Princeton, Cornell

[Helleofabore]

USA women’s freestyle swimming records were broken this weekend!!!

To all those who keep using the ‘scale’ argument to justify inclusion of males in female sport, tell us again how it takes more than one male competing in female sport to significantly and negatively impact that sport?

I am very happy to hear your well thought out and evidenced reasoning.

swimswam.com/penns-lia-thomas-breaks-200-500-free-records-in-meet-with-princeton-cornell/

Penn’s Lia Thomas blasted the number one 200 free time and the second-fastest 500 free time in the nation on Saturday, breaking Penn program records in both events. She swept the 100-200-500 free individual events and contributed to the first-place 400 free relay in a tri-meet against Princeton and Cornell in her home pool.

Sounds wonderful until you realise that for their first three years competing in the competition, they competed as a male.

twitter.com/coachblade/status/1465517693386121217?s=21

Coach Linda Blade’s tweet says :

Well of course women’s records are being smashed!

Lia competed as male for first three years in #NCAA.

This is not right!

We need to return to #SexBasedSports!

#SexNotGender to preserve fairness for female athletes.

So the rest of the world don't swim in yards, but there is a handy conversion tool.

So 200 yards in a short course pool (25 meters) in 1:43:47 would be around 1:54:85 in the 200 meter freestyle.
The womens worldrecord in short course is held by an Italian swimmer Federica Pellegrini in 1:51:17 since 2009. Current European champion did it in 1:52:75.

Tell me again how many records and medals did this person win when entering in the mens?

I wondered how they'd get a race suit to fit as well - I know different manufacturers have different cuts so you can pick the one to suit your body shape (Diana suits used to be really slim, Mosconi were good for more muscular builds), but it must be hard to find a suit to fit a male body shape?

I remember DS's LZR jammers arriving and wondering how he was ever going to get into them (answer: with plenty of timer and lot of swearing).

Also, quite a few swimmers results in that competition have an x against them, which indicates a time only swim, which enables swimmers to compete but not to take podium places or records or score. Funnily enough, Lia didn't seem to avail themselves of this option?

College kids. I know college sport is a much bigger deal in the US than university sport is here. But long ago I rowed in the Cambridge squad. You don't necessarily have a lot of perspective at that age, and you never ever want to appear to be complaining or weak. It was noticeable that the 'Oxford mutiny' of 87 happened when the squad was a lot older. The message of the book and film about it was 'do what your coaches tell you, and never mind your ego'. You're told that you must treat males in your squad as women, that it is uniquely horrible to even think anything else, that to even name what is going on is to make yourself equivalent to racist segregationists. And you get shat on, and you smile while it's happening.

OP and PPs you appear to think I’m in favour of this person (or any MTF transitioner) is being allowed to compete in women’s sport. I don’t.

As far as I’m concerned it’s dangerous in contact sports and akin to cheating in almost all others. Sex based categories weren’t created for shits and giggles.

My point about studies is that there hasn’t been enough authoritative work done on this to change the status quo. How can bodies like the NCAA make decisions like the one about a year of hormone treatment being “enough” to completely negate the advantages of male puberty when they have so little evidence to back that idea up?

Sorry pater. I was genuinely trying to establish why you think not enough studies have been done.

There are studies generically showing the difference up to 3 years with testosterone suppression in transitioned males.

Hence me asking is it sport specific that you think are needed? Or have you not seen the studies with transitioned males.

We can link some up.

Do you remember being at school when somebody did something nasty and deliberate so that they would win? And there would be a general chant of 'Cheat cheat cheat cheat cheat...'

Guess what I'm doing now.

So the questions I have - are the on a sports scholarship? Which changing/showering facilities do they use? Are they a student - which dorms are they in?

My point about studies is that there hasn’t been enough authoritative work done on this to change the status quo

The status quo was female-only sport. When was ANY authoritative work done to change that? Why is there suddenly a high bar now, eh?

Sexism, much?

This persons best as a male for 200 m was 1.39.31 so currently only 4% off.

And where did that place this swimmer in the men's division?

There's an emerging pattern with a number of young male athletes finding their performance not keeping pace with that of their male team mates (and subsequently their competitors). This reduces their chance of selection for competition places.

A transition to the women's division solves this performance problem, of course. From mediocre competitor in the men's to elite competitor in the women's.

There are those who argue no male athlete would ever demean himself by identifying as a woman when that's not true. They forget that scholarships, sponsorships and other opportunities await elite performers. Elite female athletes have fewer opportunities than elite male athletes. But they still have many more opportunities than mediocre male athletes. That's a strong motivation for many athletes who depend on these opportunities to be able to continue to study and train and compete.

Someone I know is involved in athletics training and in the US college sports scene. It’s been like this for a while now - male-bodied student athletes taking records and scholarships from the female students.

They may lose their scholarships if they don’t keep performing well - and they can also lose their place at college as a result. It’s not fair. So yes - I can easily imagine a male student desperate to keep a scholarship and college place playing the system (because it is allowed).

They work so hard then the goalposts are moved and they just can’t keep up.

What got me is how that article was so nonchalant in how it described someone breaking a record. As if there is no reason for it.

Btw, his times were only 4% respectively 6% slower than his best prior to transitioning. And that is after a year of not competing.

And another comment to address the claim by gender ideologists that no one would do this to themselves. Look at what cyclists did to themselves (let's not speculate about current practices). They even abused sleeping pills and many got cardiac problems from that. Not to mention the sheer amount of men (particularly common in the UK I believe) who take testosterone or at least have tried it, just because they can. They are not athletes. At best they are gym bros. So all this dude is doing is taking a different hormone but it's just a hormone like millions are taking who aren't even competing.

And the other students, the female one, will be on scholarships too, so won’t dare complain and risk that.

But I don't care about Lia's inner life and what led her to this decision. That is entirely her business. I don't care about her medical history or what drugs she takes really, though I care that the definition of 'woman' now includes 'medicated male'. I care that we are still in this bizarre 50s pretence that anyone with long hair must be a girly and AT ALL COSTS we can't say that a man has transitioned and remains a man while living a life that looks totally different from GI Joe.

From reading the comments, it seems that some young women on that team are very angry about Thomas’ inclusion.

But there seems nothing they can do at this point.

“The status quo was female-only sport. When was ANY authoritative work done to change that? Why is there suddenly a high bar now, eh?

Sexism, much?”

Erm… not exactly sure I follow this. How have I been sexist? I agree that the status quo is to have sex based categories and I agree that there’s no good evidence to suggest that hormone treatment negates the advantages of male puberty in MTF transitioners.

@KittenKong

Someone I know is involved in athletics training and in the US college sports scene. It’s been like this for a while now - male-bodied student athletes taking records and scholarships from the female students.

They may lose their scholarships if they don’t keep performing well - and they can also lose their place at college as a result. It’s not fair. So yes - I can easily imagine a male student desperate to keep a scholarship and college place playing the system (because it is allowed).

They work so hard then the goalposts are moved and they just can’t keep up.

Your last sentence applies to the female students whose scholarships and funding is being usurped, unfortunately for the female students they don’t have the lifeline of taking someone else’s place by claiming they have changed gender. Their only option is to leave .

Which begs the question why the well being of male athletic scholars is judged as more important than that of female athletes. (Answers on a postcard. sorry no prizes)

@AlfonsoTheUnrepentant

Here's a link to Penn's swimming and diving web site. Let's spot the male.

pennathletics.com/sports/mens-swimming-and-diving/roster/will-thomas/14590

And here is the link to their previous incarnation.

I agree that the status quo is to have sex based categories and I agree that there’s no good evidence to suggest that hormone treatment negates the advantages of male puberty in MTF transitioners.

Sorry, misread you! Not sure how...

And here is the link to their previous incarnation.

Is that Thomas or just a generic photograph? It's hard to tell.

Is that Thomas or just a generic photograph? It's hard to tell

Go to Linda Blade’s Twitter thread in the OP - the one with the Lia Thomas yearbook photo - and scroll down. Someone has posted another photo there that speaks volumes.

Actually, two photos. Just keep scrolling down.

My point about studies is that there hasn’t been enough authoritative work done on this to change the status quo. How can bodies like the NCAA make decisions like the one about a year of hormone treatment being “enough” to completely negate the advantages of male puberty when they have so little evidence to back that idea up?

As a sport scientist (retired) I can assure you that there is a huge amount of research into the sex based differences of performance, training adaptations etc, pre and post-puberty.

You are referring to the stalling technique used by the IOC and others. That of wanting specific research into the effects of cross sex hormones on sporting performance. Research that is unlikely to get through ethics; would therefore have to wait for athlete to choose to take them for their own reasons; would have to allow those athletes to continue to perform whilst collecting data.

That is where we are now. Few athletes have done so; very little specific research is available, or ever will be and mediocre men are taking advantage and choosig to compete in womens sport.

The logical step is to say no. An athlete who choses to transition does so knowing that their sporting career will be negatively impacted. Male or female.

www.westernjournal.com/transgender-swimmer-dominating-womens-circuit-competing-mens-team-years/

Some of the above links are broken.

In this piece Thomas focuses on telling us that being trans is lonely!