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Julie Burchill: "Why I loathe the woke"
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beastlyslumber · 29/11/2021 19:14

Just thought I'd share this piece of joy for anyone else who is fond of Ms Burchill...

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LobsterNapkin · 01/12/2021 01:52

[quote HazelCarbyFan]@Momobeats are people really trying to say that associating Black people with marijuana isn’t offensive? When Black people are overpoliced and incarcerated precisely because of this stereotype? Studies show all races use and possess drugs at the same rate yet the majority of cannabis stops and arrests are of Black people. How is this not harmful?

I suppose someone might be along soon to tell me marijuana means something different in the UK…

Anyway sending you love in this thread.[/quote]
For goodness sake, read the words. No one is saying that, in fact they are saying the opposite.

Seriously, do you think you should be reprimanded for writing those words in your own post?

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LobsterNapkin · 01/12/2021 01:54

I would like to know though, what this means for John McWhorter's new book. Especially where he's an American and an expert in black American English. Is he being racist?

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PrincessNutella · 01/12/2021 03:51

This is why the appeal to authority is problematic. If you say, "Black Americans find it offensive," then you assume that Black Americans, who haven't bastardized the language with such terms, as one poster implied earlier, but have enriched it, are a monolith. And they are not. Remember, President Obama has also criticized the overly woke as well. The Black community is very diverse and there is no single person in charge of what is offensive or not.
I understand that there are people on the right who attack people on the left for their opinions. But that does not also mean that there are not people on the left who are intolerant of others who don't tow what they consider the proper progressive stance. Consider the way that a staunch liberal like J.K. Rowling has been treated for not wanting to call women "menstruators." The hounding and death threats she has received surely deserve some scrutiny.

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beastlyslumber · 01/12/2021 07:43

For goodness sake, read the words. No one is saying that, in fact they are saying the opposite.

Seriously, do you think you should be reprimanded for writing those words in your own post?

I have to say, this is the thing I find the most depressing about the "woke". The twisting of language to make it mean what they want it to mean, in order to attack the speaker and claim offence. It is essentially just lying. But the people who do this will insist and insist that the speaker has said something opposite from what they said, and by this tactic hope to attach some doubt to the speaker, isolate them, and silence them.

In one way I suppose it's a clever tactic. It has been very effective in a number of cases (JKR springs to mind). But really, if you find yourself engaging in this tactic, you ought to be honest with yourself about what you're doing @Momobeats. Others can see it clearly, of course. But it can't be good for your soul!

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Shedmistress · 01/12/2021 07:51

[quote FlyingJo]@shedmistress, it would have been easier if you just admitted you made a mistake.[/quote]
What mistake?

Its not my fault that people don't understand that some people jump on 'social justice' and twist it whilst declaring they are woke, whilst simultaneousy being as unwoke as it is possible to be. Especially if they are white and at university.

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XiXimXerJinping · 01/12/2021 08:05

Yeah Shed, I think some pp's haven't engaged with the latest forms of so called 'activism' and 'liberal progressivism' if they think they aren't completely filled with the most racist, sexist, homophobic etc attitudes. Horseshoe theory? Almost an ouroborus!

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HumunaHey · 01/12/2021 08:10

@JayAlfredPrufrock

‘Woke’ is owned by black people?

You is avin a laugh.

"You is avin a laugh."
Hmm I see what you did there.
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beastlyslumber · 01/12/2021 08:12

Ah I see what you mean now.

I think it actually is the case that many people still think "woke" means Liberal rather than authoritarian. Because the movement has used the language of social justice against itself, people are genuinely confused about where others are coming from.

Confusion is very destabilising. Makes manipulation easier. Creates doubt and space for lies.

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Shedmistress · 01/12/2021 08:13

Men putting 'this is what a feminist looks like' t-shirt on to get pussy.

Doesn't make them a feminist.

We all know that, right?

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FlyingJo · 01/12/2021 08:45

What mistake? Its not my fault that people don't understand that some people jump on 'social justice' and twist it whilst declaring they are woke, whilst simultaneousy being as unwoke as it is possible to be. Especially if they are white and at university

It is your fault however if you misinterpret someone's post, then accuse them of not understanding and being dismissive. This annoyed me because Hazel was making constructive points on this thread and you dismissed her. It made you look bad. Let's look at it again.

Hazel: "I actually had friends at the University of Toronto when Peterson fandom was at its height and the things Black women went through on that campus were awful. They held a town hall meeting about racial incidents on campus and the White students showed up hours before on purpose, took up all the seats so the Black students had to sit on the floor and then mocked them and told the women things like they were a maid and sit at my feet".

You: "Yes, these are the people who think they are 'woke' because they went to a meeting about racial issues."

Hazel: "No, the threatening white men were not there because they were “woke.” They were there to intimidate people talking about racism. They weren’t there to participate, they were there to shut it down. Seriously how do you read an account of White men calling Black women maids and conclude those are liberals who think they’re anti-racist?"

You: "I don't conclude anything of the sort. You are missing the point so spectacularly I think it really isn't worth explaining it to you any more."

Just admit you made a mistake. You clearly misunderstood Hazel's point, and rather than say sorry, you attacked her. It was just rude, childish behaviour.

I get your point and I agree with it. A lot of what we call "woke" is as someone said on this thread "fauxgressive". That's your point. Hazel's point seems to be that she has some problems with the way "woke" is being used and weaponized. I'm no fan of millennial identity politics, but I see that "woke" is being used to tar a lot of progressive politics unjustly.

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Shedmistress · 01/12/2021 08:50

Hazel's point seems to be that she has some problems with the way "woke" is being used and weaponized. I'm no fan of millennial identity politics, but I see that "woke" is being used to tar a lot of progressive politics unjustly.

Hazel can say she has a problem with whatever words she likes. If she doesn't realise that it is the people that have co-opted the words for their own usage which is the actual opposite of the original usage, and it is those people that Julie Birchill is talking about, then I can't explain it any clearer than I already have, several times.

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FlyingJo · 01/12/2021 08:54

If you're such a clear thinker and writer, I guess it would be easy for you to admit you made a mistake and apologise.

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XiXimXerJinping · 01/12/2021 09:01

You insisting that there was a mistake doesn't make it miraculously true Jo.

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Shedmistress · 01/12/2021 09:01

@FlyingJo

If you're such a clear thinker and writer, I guess it would be easy for you to admit you made a mistake and apologise.

There is no mistake. I can guarante those white university students thought they were super special progressive for going to an event on racism.


I have no way of researching for evidence but it happens regularly.

Like the Brighton women's meeting where the super woke hounded the attendees, banged on the windows, shouted abuse the whole night long and the police let it happen in front of them because they can't be seen to arrest anyone who is a true social justice warrior. Regardless of the fact women were petrified inside that hall. It is the very opposite of social justice but it has been twisted so far people are petrified of acting on it.

It happens so often I can't believe you don't see it.

As I said, it's not my fault you can't...

If you don't want me commenting, stop @ or mentioning me and I'll go off and leave you to pile on to Julie in peace.
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FlyingJo · 01/12/2021 09:10

You insisting that there was a mistake doesn't make it miraculously true Jo.

There is no mistake. I can guarantee those white university students thought they were super special progressive for going to an event on racism.

You have it your way. Hazel, who introduced the story and specifically said these white students who sat in on the meetings with the intention to shut the meeting down were not "woke" students, must have been wrong.

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C8H10N4O2 · 01/12/2021 09:13

There is no mistake. I can guarante those white university students thought they were super special progressive for going to an event on racism

You were there were you? I mean you must have been to so confidently assert that a black woman describing her experiences is lying.

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XiXimXerJinping · 01/12/2021 09:15

I'm sure Hazel wasn't wrong as she heard it from people who were there but she was certainly ambiguous in her comment as she assumed we would automatically know that the racists weren't the 'liberal' students. As several of us have said several times now, it's practically a hallmark of those kind of students these days, so of course some posters will believe that she was referring to them.

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LobsterNapkin · 01/12/2021 13:03

@XiXimXerJinping

Yeah Shed, I think some pp's haven't engaged with the latest forms of so called 'activism' and 'liberal progressivism' if they think they aren't completely filled with the most racist, sexist, homophobic etc attitudes. Horseshoe theory? Almost an ouroborus!

I'm not sure what was really going on in the incident described. I don't think it's clear whether these people were a bunch of supposed liberals, though I will say it didn't read to me like that. More like they were some sort of white supremacists.

But I have a very difficult time imagining the incident actually happening at all. A bunch of white students at UofT, woke central, telling black students they should be maids and mocking them? Without someone in charge, or other students, calling them out? Nothing's impossible of course but I'm skeptical that it's an accurate picture of what was going on.
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PrincessNutella · 01/12/2021 13:20

I think there is plenty of racism on the left. How about the folxxx who say that trans women are women the same way that black women are women? No, black women are female, and trans women are male. Not the same thing at all. There is a huge amount of anti-Semitism on the left. And as we all know, there is a huge amount of misogyny on the left. We need to fight for the rights of women beyond left and right. We don't want to be host bodies, as the right call us, nor do we want to be birthing bodies, as the left call us. Come on now.

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HazelCarbyFan · 01/12/2021 13:34

@lobsternapkin
I actually didn’t understand what was happening in the exchange with @Momobeats - that’s why I asked her, “are people seriously saying…?” I was asking her for clarification as it seemed the argument going on was she was rightly offended by that stereotype and seemed to be saying that people were defending it as true and saying Black people do indeed like jerk and weed and that liking it makes you Black.

Then I also backed her up on why that is a harmful thing to say wherever it was said on this board.

But go ahead and “reprimand” me. Good lord, the language being used towards Black women on this thread. I’ve been called “angry” (not like there isn’t a whole demeaning history of “angry Black woman”) on the very same thread as people brag about being “not kind” - so white woman can embrace being not kind deliberately, but a Black woman is raging for sharing experiences and making points. I’m a Stalinist. I’m a totalitarian. I’m controlling language, but if I ask another Black woman a question in a hostile thread to figure out what the argument is about and send her love as we experience the same hostility and demeaning comments I need to be chastised? Some of you really get off putting us in our place I guess.

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elgreco · 01/12/2021 13:43

I lurk here. I think shedbuilder is acting defensively as she possibly sees a pattern:

First time poster asking nicely for this board to change the language used as it offends them.

When refused out come the stories of horrors inflicted on this particular poster that are plausible. People express sorrow but still argue against censorship.

Cue accusations of trans phobia.

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HazelCarbyFan · 01/12/2021 13:54

Also, good to know that women on this thread think Black women lie about our experiences of racism. Nice solidarity there.

People who actually went to the University if Toronto have documented their experiences of racism quite extensively - a mere google will show you many results - but you don’t believe them because you prefer to believe myths about Canada as a racism-free leftist paradise despite the many reports - such as UN report on racism in Canada - saying the contrary? Again, on a thread where people complain about applying a US-lens to racism - arguing you need to consider local context - but then blithely dismiss what actually happens in Canada shown in data, studies, reports, books, experiences, etc. in favour of the most debunked mythologies about Canada as a racial paradise?

A Black woman wrote a good book about her experiences of racism at a university in Canada - Eternity Martis. Perhaps read it before you claim Black women are lying.

I said “please don’t do this” at the beginning of this thread - an actual polite request after an explanation. And that is treated as some near-violent act, but all of the subsequent attacks in this thread are what? Reasoned? Civil? Feminist debate? It’s really sad.

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NellWilsonsWhiteHair · 01/12/2021 13:58

@CharlieParley
"There is indeed a big gap between the two. What you describe in your comment is exactly how I understand movements that function adequately (as I said in an earlier comment). Deal with real misconduct, but don't engage in purity spirals."

But what I'm trying to work out is what the difference is between this, and what I'd originally written and you quoted and described as: And that is critical theory in practice. Always hampering any movement that allows it by turning inward and destructively criticising itself until it fractures into ever smaller interest groups, all at odds with each other over real or perceived slights and prejudice.

I had said this: "I think 'GC feminism' is an incredibly broad church, and I'm in favour of both pragmatism in alliances and platforming ideas which challenge me (I'm not quite a free speech absolutist though). At the same time I think it's right to be challenging racism and actual transphobia in our own ranks, even when that's uncomfortable, because otherwise it's just an unquestioning loyalty to groupthink and tribal identity, isn't it?"

Even if we do come to different positions on the usefulness of the label "woke", what is the actual distinction between how we think feminists should navigate the discussion? I can't see the difference...

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HazelCarbyFan · 01/12/2021 13:58

@elgreco I’m not a first-time poster and I’ve read here for years. I don’t post too much because I don’t often feel theres much to contribute often in a thread. I feel I do have something to say here. When have I said transphobic? One reason I don’t post much is I try to give women space to express their views so I can think about them and process them - if I don’t particularly agree where with a woman is coming from but she’s upset and saying something hurts or bothers her, I don’t see the point in coming in and invalidating her feelings and I also don’t think that name calling her will be productive or effective. Too bad the same courtesy doesn’t come to me!

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Shedmistress · 01/12/2021 13:58

but you don’t believe them because you prefer to believe myths about Canada as a racism-free leftist paradise despite the many reports

What do you call the people that report the myths that Canada is a rasicm-free leftist paradise?

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