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Julie Burchill: "Why I loathe the woke"
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beastlyslumber · 29/11/2021 19:14

Just thought I'd share this piece of joy for anyone else who is fond of Ms Burchill...

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beastlyslumber · 02/12/2021 17:12

Plenty of people said they'd be happy to use another word and a few said they already do. Just tell me what the correct word is. Fauxgressives? Establishment Ideologues? I don't mind as long as there's a word to describe these people/this movement.

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CharlieParley · 02/12/2021 19:25

Can you really not see a difference between a word like mother and woke?

Mother is one of the oldest 23 words in English. It has endured for over 15,000 years. Every single language in the world has its equivalent word, of a similar age to the English one. And this is a word that only ever means female parent.

Woke has an original meaning of the past tense for wake or awaken, meaning waking up (attested since the 1300s). It was given an additional meaning in English only, and only one English dialect to boot - African American Vernacular English - starting in the 1920s to 1960s (chiefly). It was used in the context of one civil rights movement in one country in the decades since. It rose to prominence with the founding of the Black Lives Matter movement in 2013. And was almost immediately taken up by others engaged in activism focused on different issues, so much so that by 2017(!) it was entered into the Oxford English Dictionary with this definition:

"woke, adjective: Originally: well-informed, up-to-date. Now chiefly: alert to racial or social discrimination and injustice; frequently in stay woke."

Link to a Time magazine article from 2017 about this new entry below:

time.com/4830959/oxford-english-dictionary-woke/

(I mean if you're digging into the etymology of the word, you'll find that even amongst Black Americans usage prior to 2013 encompasses more than just "an awareness of racial issues".)

You really think that the evolution of these two words is the same?

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NoNotMeNoSiree · 02/12/2021 22:34

@andyoldlabour

HazelCarbyFan

Could I ask you the following, because the incident which you described would be massively reported in the MSM.

When did it happen?
Exactly where did it happen?
How many people were involved?

JFC.
Seriously?!
Do you do the inquisition and disbelief for all women on feminism, or do you save it especially for black women?
Next time someone posts that somebody said they had to declare their pronouns, or that they were sexually assaulted, I bet you'll be right in there asking them when, where, why and are they sure?
Won't you?
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CharlieParley · 03/12/2021 00:50

@andyoldlabour

HazelCarbyFan

Could I ask you the following, because the incident which you described would be massively reported in the MSM.

When did it happen?
Exactly where did it happen?
How many people were involved?

Jordan Peterson is still working at the University of Toronto, but he first came to prominence on a free speech issue centred on Bill C-16 from September 2016 onwards. He later also expressed other views that caused controversy.

So if you want to look into this, it gives you maybe a four to five year window. A quick search nets a town hall meeting outside that window, in 2009 on racism, which was peaceful and found to be beneficial, but the described incidents leading up to it strongly support HazelCarbyFan's contention that racism is rife and serious at the university. Then there's one in 2017 following racist social media posts. There is also a 2018 town hall meeting on racism which was deliberately disrupted by people described as white supremacists (they violated the meeting and speaking rules). This was reported in the press.

I'm sure there will be more, because the University of Toronto seems unwilling to invest anywhere near the same amount of time and effort into tackling racism as they are investing in tackling transphobia (this is explicitly criticised in the 2017 article).

2009
torontoist.com/2009/11/a_lesson_on_blackface/

2017
www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/2017/12/05/racist-cyberattacks-at-u-of-t-highlight-barriers-to-redressal.html

2018
www.thestar.com/opinion/star-columnists/2018/02/26/how-anti-racism-town-hall-gave-hate-mongers-an-outsized-place-at-the-table.html
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PurgatoryOfPotholes · 03/12/2021 00:58

@beastlyslumber

Plenty of people said they'd be happy to use another word and a few said they already do. Just tell me what the correct word is. Fauxgressives? Establishment Ideologues? I don't mind as long as there's a word to describe these people/this movement.

When everyone already knows what you're talking about, I think any word works fine as a shorthand.

When you're trying to explain the culture wars to people who don't spend much time online, you're going to have to explain the concepts from ground level. I always go for pseudo-progressive, because it pairs with pseudo-intellectual and I think people can quickly get the concept.
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andyoldlabour · 03/12/2021 13:03

NoNotMeNoSiree

Why are you trying to turn this into a race issue, I don't care what colour someone is, I just want evidence to back up claims, particularly with an incident such as this one, which would have correctly resulted in a huge press story.

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andyoldlabour · 03/12/2021 13:05

CharlieParley

Thanks for those links, particularly the 2018 one where the town hall was gatecrashed by the right wing mob.

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PrincessNutella · 03/12/2021 13:09

I think there's plenty of racism in countries who think they are above racism, like Canada. They have a deplorable history with their native peoples, for one thing. They had internment camps for Japanese people during World War II. They treated French people badly. And of course there was always and is going to be institutional and personal racism directed toward black Canadians as well.

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Shedmistress · 03/12/2021 13:22

It is well known that the press don't publish stories if they don't want to.

What about the progressive Jessica Simpson? With all that suing of Asian women who wouldn't wax his balls? How much official press did that get?

I'm still reeling over the assumption that the UK universities are racism free 'it would never happen over here'. Oh my days. This is where [the misappropriation of] woke gets us.

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Justanothermam · 03/12/2021 13:32

Please stop using this term in this way

Absolutely not. I am sick of people policing other people words.

OP, it was great video.

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AlfonsoTheUnrepentant · 03/12/2021 13:47

@Justanothermam

Please stop using this term in this way

Absolutely not. I am sick of people policing other people words.

OP, it was great video.

I agree. No. No one polices my language. Someone doesn't like how I speak? Too bad.
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FlibbertyGiblets · 03/12/2021 14:26

Hello last two posters, would you please make sure you have read all the posts by HazelCarbyFan thank you.

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Fifteentoes · 03/12/2021 17:14

@houseonthehill

Zipless Fuck is definitely Jong, and describes something entirely other than joyless sex.

Problem with Burchill is that she has been slowly Going Gammon - like her old mucker Tony Parsons did.

Not so sure about "slowly". I gave up reading Burchill years ago when it became clear to me she was basically a one trick pony. The old left/right double bluff: Present image initially as lefty radical, anti-establishment etc, introduce a relevant topic and then take a position that shocks everyone by actually challenging the prejudices of the left rather than those of the right. It's sooooo clever - well, the first 387 times, perhaps . . .
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beastlyslumber · 04/12/2021 09:52

This is a US-centric conversation but they touch on some of the points made in this thread:

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PrincessNutella · 04/12/2021 20:46

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

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