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Julie Burchill: "Why I loathe the woke"
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beastlyslumber · 29/11/2021 19:14

Just thought I'd share this piece of joy for anyone else who is fond of Ms Burchill...

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Shedmistress · 01/12/2021 19:32

I didn't understand why you were saying the racist students were woke, for example

I didn't say they were woke.

I said they would say they were woke.

All students think they are woke.

If you go into a university and say 'is anyone here not woke', nobody will put their hands up.

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LobsterNapkin · 01/12/2021 19:39

@Shedmistress

I didn't understand why you were saying the racist students were woke, for example

I didn't say they were woke.

I said they would say they were woke.

All students think they are woke.

If you go into a university and say 'is anyone here not woke', nobody will put their hands up.

Yeah, I don't think that the people described would have said they were woke.

Not all students do think that, though the ones who do are the loudest.

But I am very curious about what sort of meeting this might have been. Like a sports team, some sort of engineering things? The details seem quite difficult to pin down.
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beastlyslumber · 01/12/2021 19:55

I don't think those particular students would say they were woke. Then again, I'm not sure this particular event actually happened. So who knows.

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Shedmistress · 01/12/2021 20:06

I don't think those particular students would say they were woke'

So if the definition was the opposite of the original they might?

We live in a world now where the only people that can call themselves women, are men. Clownland.

Anyway I've said my piece over and over again and again. Time to get in with something else.

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HazelCarbyFan · 01/12/2021 20:41

Well I hate to say I’m done with a thread and then come back, but since I’m being called a liar and people can’t believe racism exists on campuses and no one would use racist language or slurs, here is an account from two years after the incident I described of the kinds of things Black students encounter. You might like this one because they mention how anti-Blackness can coincide with discourse on LGBTQ issues (lecturing Black students on homophobia while being racist.)

www.google.ca/amp/s/www.thestar.com/amp/opinion/star-columnists/2017/12/05/racist-cyberattacks-at-u-of-t-highlight-barriers-to-redressal.html

For those about to ask why this was reported and the earlier one wasn’t, the reporter was hired to cover racial issues after the previous incident occurred. It is no mystery that many incidents of racism do not make the news, especially when speaking out about it gets you bullied further.

If you don’t believe white students would take up seats and then mock Black students for sitting at their feet, you obviously haven’t lived as a Black person is all I can say. But if you believe it’s all fictional, no wonder you’re investing in dismissing discussions of racism as “wokeness.”

Question then: does being gender critical and standing for women’s rights mean I have to accept that talking about racism is automatically cancel culture and Stalinistic? How does that promote my rights as a Black person in society? Why are you more invested in what Triggernometry says than what Black women say? Is it the woke who are a barrier to women’s solidarity and organizing or is it stuff like calling Black women liars when we recount racist incidents and experiences? What does denying racism have to do with feminist organizing and how does it advance women? Notice these incidents involve men, not women, yet you’d rather excuse white men than listen to Black women. Seems as man-centred as the TRAs you critique, no?

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HazelCarbyFan · 01/12/2021 21:08

By the way, I’ve never denied that anti-Blackness exists everywhere: in the women’s movement, in the gay rights movement, in so-called progressive spaces, in people of other races (the article points out Asian students were involved in using the n-word too.) But that - recognizing the systemic and constant nature of anti-Blackness and its historic roots in institutions that won’t be solved by more “diversity” - is Critical Race Theory and so many of you hate that too. You want to say the current LGBTQ movement is racist (no argument here, Black people been saying this and that the feminist movement is racist, and that the environmental movement is racist - because racism is ingrained in society) but simultaneously dismiss discussions of racism except when it serves your singular narrative. It’s telling.

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beastlyslumber · 01/12/2021 21:18

since I’m being called a liar and people can’t believe racism exists on campuses and no one would use racist language or slurs

I don't think anyone said any of those things?

*If you don’t believe white students would take up seats and then mock Black students for sitting at their feet, you obviously haven’t lived as a Black person is all I can say."

I do believe it, absolutely. What I find hard to believe is that it hasn't been covered in the press. I'm surprised it wasn't even mentioned in the story you shared - you'd think the students interviewed would have mentioned it. It seems like the kind of story the media would normally want to pick up and run a long way with, as they have with other racism on campus stories. Do you have any thoughts on why it wasn't reported?

does being gender critical and standing for women’s rights mean I have to accept that talking about racism is automatically cancel culture and Stalinistic?

No. Again, I don't think anyone on here said it was. People were talking about the evolution and use/misuse of a particular word, and of language in general. No one called you a stalinist that I'm aware of.

Why are you more invested in what Triggernometry says than what Black women say?

I'm not. I don't assign hierarchy to people's words based on the colour of their skin. I try to listen to arguments and work out what I think based on what people actually say. (Not sure what the relevance of triggernometry is - I may have missed something.)

I honestly don't see you being attacked in this thread, Hazel, and I'm genuinely sorry that you feel you have been. But reading back through comments, it seems that people are challenging your (and others') arguments and you are claiming that they are directly accusing you or targeting you of the things that they are talking about. For example, someone commented on the idea of reprimanding others for their words, and you claimed to have been reprimanded. Someone referenced Stalinism in relation to a set of attitudes connected to "wokeness" and you claimed to have been called a Stalinist. And so on. It is hard to engage on that level because it quickly becomes a fight and everyone feels stressed by it and stops listening to one another.

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Lovelyricepudding · 01/12/2021 21:22

If you don’t believe white students would take up seats and then mock Black students for sitting at their feet, you obviously haven’t lived as a Black person is all I can say. But if you believe it’s all fictional, no wonder you’re investing in dismissing discussions of racism as “wokeness.”
I believe in racism in the same way as I believe there was deep mistreatment and abuse of the peasant classes by the Russian Tsars. Stalin rose to power because he was tackling a real injustice. That there 'wokeness' started from a place of good intent does not mean it has remained unharmful and should now not be mocked and criticised.

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HazelCarbyFan · 01/12/2021 21:25

@beastlyslumber you said “I’m not sure this particular event actually happened.” What is that but saying I’m lying when I’m the one who said it happened and that I know people who were there and experienced it? You didn’t say “I’m not sure why it wasn’t reported,” your own words say “I’m not sure it happened.” So you don’t believe me when I tell you it did, then you say I’m projecting and no-one is actually saying these things. I’m not the one being disingenuous, you are.

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beastlyslumber · 01/12/2021 21:28

but simultaneously dismiss discussions of racism except when it serves your singular narrative.

To be fair to me, my "singular narrative" purpose here was to share a Julie Burchill interview which I found entertaining. Then it turned into a huge discussion of the word "woke" which then turned into a huge discussion about how I'm apparently racist because I don't agree with everything you say.

I've really tried to hear everyone on this thread, to the point that it's spun me round in circles quite a bit. I'm sorry if you're upset by things that have been said here but that is the nature of forums like this - they don't always go your way!

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HazelCarbyFan · 01/12/2021 21:33

I didn’t say you were racist. I never once said that. I said you, and others, were invested in dismissing discussions of racism. See how yet again you do what you accuse me of?

Go back and read your comments on this page and the previous page where you say you doubt this incident occurred as described in more than one post but then try to gaslight me for responding by pointing out you’re calling me a liar.

I’m happy to list all the quotes where you say you don’t believe this incident happened, and also agree with others denying it. Can you quote where I called you racist?

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beastlyslumber · 01/12/2021 21:37

[quote HazelCarbyFan]@beastlyslumber you said “I’m not sure this particular event actually happened.” What is that but saying I’m lying when I’m the one who said it happened and that I know people who were there and experienced it? You didn’t say “I’m not sure why it wasn’t reported,” your own words say “I’m not sure it happened.” So you don’t believe me when I tell you it did, then you say I’m projecting and no-one is actually saying these things. I’m not the one being disingenuous, you are.[/quote]
I honestly have no idea about this. I'm genuinely not sure if it happened.

On the side of it happened:

  1. You claim so. I don't know you but not sure why you'd lie.
  2. I know racism is real

    On the side of it didn't:
  3. Where's the evidence? The news stories, the outrage? Other racism on campus incidents have blown up, why not this one?
  4. This kind of overt racism is really not tolerated in educational environments. It would have been called out and dealt with in some way.

    So, that's what I'm saying. I'm not sure. You seem to think I should just take your word for it, and that it's a grave insult for me not to do so. But I don't know why you would think that? I don't know you, beyond the words you have shared on this thread.

    I also did not say you're projecting. I described the comments as I understood them, and described your response of saying they were aimed directly at you. I guess that could be projection. It could also be misunderstanding. Or it could be trying to start a fight. It could be something else. I don't know! I don't actually know you. I'm just talking to someone on the internet, trying to make sense of what's turned out to be a very strange conversation.
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Lovelyricepudding · 01/12/2021 21:38

We don't now say 'you mustn't criticise stalinism because peasants in Georgia were suffering' - but that is probably what people said as Stalin set up his regime. Wokeness may be a way off Stalinism but racism is used to justify it: 'you mustn't criticise wokeness because black people are suffering'.

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flashbac · 01/12/2021 21:39

@beastlyslumber
You say you are not racist but you're a fan of Julie Burchill?

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beastlyslumber · 01/12/2021 21:39

@HazelCarbyFan

I didn’t say you were racist. I never once said that. I said you, and others, were invested in dismissing discussions of racism. See how yet again you do what you accuse me of?

Go back and read your comments on this page and the previous page where you say you doubt this incident occurred as described in more than one post but then try to gaslight me for responding by pointing out you’re calling me a liar.

I’m happy to list all the quotes where you say you don’t believe this incident happened, and also agree with others denying it. Can you quote where I called you racist?

I apologise if I misunderstood your comments. I took this "You want to say the current LGBTQ movement is racist ... but simultaneously dismiss discussions of racism except when it serves your singular narrative. It’s telling." as you saying "it's telling of racism."

What did you mean, then?
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beastlyslumber · 01/12/2021 21:40

[quote flashbac]@beastlyslumber
You say you are not racist but you're a fan of Julie Burchill?[/quote]
Correct. Good reading comprehension. Have a sticker.

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HazelCarbyFan · 01/12/2021 21:41

And how is this different from if a woman says “I was assaulted and harassed by a man at work” and people respond by saying it wouldn’t happen, nobody would do that, they’ve worked in an office and HR wouldn’t allow it, details seem sketchy, men wouldn’t do it in a public place, he has a wife, she’s not even pretty, etc.?

I mean, sure, no one can force you to believe anything, but when people recount abusive situations and your response is to come up with all the reasons it couldn’t have happened, then yes, you seem invested in denying it.

And again, isn’t this what you decry TRAs doing? Saying women aren’t actually getting threats, that there’s no way the story of a Trans woman in a therapy group is true, the details don’t add up, it’s not real profiles sending the rape threats, etc.?

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LobsterNapkin · 01/12/2021 21:41

That article doesn't really say anything about the meeting mentioned?

No one has disagreed that racist stuff happens on campus. The description however of that meeting was pretty vague, so it's very unclear what actually happened. Social media is the kind of place it's quite easy to imagine some really unpleasant interactions happening. But what supposedly happened at this meeting? Was it really, as described, a whole meeting of people taunting black students? And no one said anything? And what does it have to do with students who are pushing race essentialism as the only anti-racism, which was the topic? The fact that the former exist doesn't make the latter ok.

Beastly is right, it's very difficult to engage when any comment is interpreted as some kind of personal attack. I asked earlier if a repeating sterotypes about black people was ok if it was to describe said negative stereotype as the post had - the point being that is what was being complained about in the first place. That's not a personal attack or a reprimand, the point is that obviously, no, it shouldn't be reprimanded.

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beastlyslumber · 01/12/2021 21:48

Well you can draw all sorts of analogies and comparisons, but if I wasn't sure about something I don't know why I'd say I was. I think it's okay to not know, to waver between different options, and to change my mind. You could see that as an opportunity - that I'm not sure means I'm not entrenched in a particular position, therefore with the right kind of argument/evidence, I might be convinced. But at the moment, the more you post, the more alienated from you I feel and the harder it is for me to connect with you in this conversation. Shall we drop it, and hope to talk more productively another time?

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NoNotMeNoSiree · 01/12/2021 21:49

I'm not the one being disingenuous, you are
Yep, gaslighting in action here - you're being clear as day yet others are making out they didn't say what they blatantly did!

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Panacotta · 01/12/2021 21:51

@Whataday198

"I loathe the Woke" does have a very distinctive Richard Littlejohn air to it.

*shudders at thought of RLJ
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HazelCarbyFan · 01/12/2021 21:54

I meant it’s telling of the hypocrisy of this discussion and the inconsistent reasoning and values being applied. Women’s stories matter unless it’s Black women. Racism matters when it can be used to critique the Trans movement but not if it asks you - not even to critique yourself, but simply to acknowledge its weight and impact. Believe women about abuse unless it’s racial abuse, then it doesn’t add up.

Perhaps I should have said a bunch of people with pronoun badges took up the chairs. I bet nobody would question that. Then you’d love that it happened. Sorry that it was men, though.

I’m actually baffled that you actually believe this idea that Black people have so much power that when we experience racism the whole world falls at our feet to amplify it. As this thread shows, talking about racism is exhausting, people disbelieve you, you face attacks and questions about your integrity, you get bullied, you get gaslighted, it wastes your time and energy - you think Black people want that in our lives? That we don’t often post about it privately, tell each other, try to deal with it in private so we don’t get flamed and harassed? In the story I linked, the woman wouldn’t give her name because she was so scared of the consequences, and you doubt that students in a racist meeting might not run to the papers at a time when “cancel culture on campus” stories were at an all time high? You think they wouldn’t fear rightly that it would be reported as them being fragile snowflakes? That what has happened here with people saying they’re lying wouldn’t happen?

Again, this entire board basically exists because women felt the media never reliefs threats on women, that the media is captured, that stories are ignored and buried, that women are scared to come forward except in places with fellow women. You know that, but then are surprised that Black women - among the most powerless people in society - don’t get platforms to speak?

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NoNotMeNoSiree · 01/12/2021 21:55

Oh and why the fuck should hazels experiences of racism as a black person be automatically disbelieved?
Why are people taking the side of aggressive, racist men and trying to find excuses/justify them in the feminism forum instead of a black woman and her experiences?
Hmm

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NoNotMeNoSiree · 01/12/2021 21:56

Cross posted with Hazel there

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HazelCarbyFan · 01/12/2021 22:02

Reports, not reliefs.

And as I said multiple times, the meeting I am talking about happened in 2015, 2 years before that article. I posted that article to refute posts expressing disbelief this could happen, showing this kind of behaviour in fact happens regularly and repeatedly. It was shared on social media but I’m hardly going to point you to the profiles of Black women talking about racism in 2015 so you can do this to them too. My university had swastika graffiti in the stairways and racist graffiti in the library so I’m really not sure why people don’t think white men would be gross at a meeting. Men are frequently abusive and get away with it. This is news on a feminist board? Wait until I tell you about how men rape women on campus with impunity!

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