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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Men and paraphilias

90 replies

FindTheTruth · 28/11/2021 16:05

Norms exist for a reason and should not be erased
threadreaderapp.com/thread/1464548294693203973.html

OP posts:
Fifteentoes · 28/11/2021 17:24

Norms exist for a reason and should not be erased

Exactly what people said, universally and for centuries, about men working and women being obedient wives and mothers.

TurquoiseBaubles · 28/11/2021 17:30

3...2.....1....Poof

Probably. I don't think we are allowed to join dots on here.

Datun · 28/11/2021 17:43

Even a man on that thread says he recognises the pattern.

I don't think there's anyone with any degree of awareness, who doesn't, really. But she articulates it brilliantly.

Datun · 28/11/2021 17:55

@TurquoiseBaubles

3...2.....1....Poof

Probably. I don't think we are allowed to join dots on here.

HQ said repeatedly that we are absolutely allowed to discuss AGP.

But I don't think you can make it personal to any one individual.

SpangleWhorl · 28/11/2021 17:57

@Fifteentoes

Norms exist for a reason and should not be erased

Exactly what people said, universally and for centuries, about men working and women being obedient wives and mothers.

That's rather a clumsy look at history, if you don't mind me saying.
barleybadminton · 28/11/2021 18:07

As opposed to hostle forces engaged in a secret plot to destroy liberal democracy?

Reads like very thinly veiled antisemitism to me.

FindTheTruth · 28/11/2021 18:15

HQ said repeatedly that we are absolutely allowed to discuss AGP.

But I don't think you can make it personal to any one individual

Thanks for clarifying this. We and the public need to be aware and be able to talk about paraphilia's. In the WomanKind TV programme, the allies like Suzi were talking about TW with gender dysphoria who would never strip off naked in a changing room with a penis and they're right. But they don't know or discuss or realise (or choose not to realise) that the AGP's exist too in far greater numbers. So every time #BeKind comes up the question to ask is 'what about paraphilia's?' Should women be support humans to mens desires? Breast feeding groups etc etc.

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 28/11/2021 18:19

I thought that JCJ's reply to LPenny was good too today.

Content Warning though - this discusses (but in no detail) Foucault's sexual habits - children.

twitter.com/janeclarejones/status/1464922965586370566?s=20

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 28/11/2021 18:27

Exactly what people said, universally and for centuries, about men working and women being obedient wives and mothers.

I don't ever recall a period in history where women were exempt from work - being valued or paid for that work is a different matter so I'd argue against your interpretation of that norm.

There can be considerable blind spots in accepted cultural norms; they do require scrutiny to assess whether they're still relevant and useful.

There are other norms that are grounded in survival and quick reactions: these tend to be durable for a reason.

RoyalCorgi · 28/11/2021 18:31

Watching JCJ vs Penny is like watching an elephant squash an ant. It's really not a fair contest.

What I find hilarious about the exchange is the bit where Penny admits "Terfs" might be right about Foucault being a child rapist, but as our motives in pointing it out are motivated by bad faith, she can ignore us.

HipTightOnions · 28/11/2021 18:36

What an interesting set of ideas.

Thanks for posting.

Awkwardy · 28/11/2021 18:37

Powerful stuff in the OPS link. Making me think

MultiStorey · 28/11/2021 19:42

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Bellendejour · 28/11/2021 20:57

I read Russia/CCP too.

That was a great thread.

A couple of other articles I’ve come across recently:

www.feministcurrent.com/2020/11/29/why-isnt-anyone-talking-about-the-influence-of-porn-on-the-trans-trend/

4w.pub/fetishizing-forcible-transitioning-kids-app/

Linked from the article above:
mobile.twitter.com/WomenReadWomen/status/1439477663324725248

CheeseMmmm · 28/11/2021 21:18

Flashing is a very common paraphilia.

The categorisation of some sexual behaviours/ urges is for a reason.

  1. They are often linked to others, and patterns of behaviours urges that cause harm to others or are likely to escalate into things that do is very important.
  1. For those with paraphilias of types that don't cause harm to others, there are often distressing to the person. It can restrict them from being able to fully enjoy/ form sexual relationships with others and that is a big impact on life.
I saw a prog about it and they can be very peculiar and come in a huge variety. They call it mis targeted sexuality or something. Anyway this poor sod was sexually aroused by paperclips. No joke. Ii mean that is going to be tricky as paperclips all over the place. And it's not something I can imagine many partners would be understanding of and incorporate into sex live. And even if did it it's still the paperclip he's into not the person... With one sellotaped to their face or whatever. I know sounds like taking the piss but it really can mess up their life.

Didn't look at the thing but if it's cross dressing then that is the or one of most common paraphilias. Often along with other aspects.

Everyone knows this. It's in the news regularly. Flashers in women's underwear. Theft of women's underwear. More serious sex offenders not unusual to have in past. Man who committed murder had a trophy bag full of knickers from previous victim and previous convictions for peeping Tom and other stuff as well.

Women are of course somehow supposed to put this essential safety knowledge to one side.

Bellendejour · 28/11/2021 21:20

Another related (shorter) thread:

mobile.twitter.com/wwwritingclub/status/1465031652187549696

NotTerfNorCis · 28/11/2021 21:52

I was puzzling my head about AGP today. A TRA was claiming that most women have AGP - it's just 'feeling sexy'.

But there's a difference between feeling like you're sexually attractive or you fancy sex, and being attracted to yourself. Especially if the image of yourself that you're attracted to is of you with the body of the opposite sex, or wearing clothes/carrying out activities associates with the opposite sex.

Would anyone seriously claim the average bloke gets turned on by thinking about his own body, imagining himself in shirt and trousers, or carrying out stereotypically 'manly' activities like DIY? It sounds ridiculous, right? So why would the average woman be any different?

Was there ever a woman who was out in public wearing a dress, who thought, 'I'm a woman, this is so arousing'?

LobsterNapkin · 28/11/2021 23:46

It's an interesting set of points. I broadly agree with them, though I think I'd have been slightly universal in saying things like men will go to great lengths to pursue the path of paraphilia. That's not quite true, most men don't and wouldn't want to.

The important point is that male sexuality is vulnerable to this sort of problem, and it begins generally without any intent or real awareness, often in quite young men and boys. One they are on that path it becomes more and more difficult to interrupt and it also becomes more and more difficult for them to have a satisfying sex life and relationship.

If the culture wants to minimize that kind of thing they need to minimize triggers and the things that further entrench the paraphilia (porn, overt public sexuality all over the place, for example) and maximize the things that lead to a more stable sexual person, whatever they are.

We've created the opposite, maximizing the chance of triggers, making it easy practically and psychologically to carry on, and actually rather difficult to get off the train early on. The worst thing being some sort of psychologist telling a young man that yes, he really is a lesbian and society should back that idea up.

LobsterNapkin · 28/11/2021 23:55

@NotTerfNorCis

I was puzzling my head about AGP today. A TRA was claiming that most women have AGP - it's just 'feeling sexy'.

But there's a difference between feeling like you're sexually attractive or you fancy sex, and being attracted to yourself. Especially if the image of yourself that you're attracted to is of you with the body of the opposite sex, or wearing clothes/carrying out activities associates with the opposite sex.

Would anyone seriously claim the average bloke gets turned on by thinking about his own body, imagining himself in shirt and trousers, or carrying out stereotypically 'manly' activities like DIY? It sounds ridiculous, right? So why would the average woman be any different?

Was there ever a woman who was out in public wearing a dress, who thought, 'I'm a woman, this is so arousing'?

I could see that there might be a certain kind of similarity for some people. Whether or not that would involve some of the same psychological elements I don't know.

It's also similar to what goes on with exhibitionism, which is a fairly common turn on and one that seems more common among women than some of the other behaviors of this kind. We don't always think of it this way, but for a person to be aroused by the idea of being watched, they have to in some sense put themselves in the mind of the person watching them. They are imagining the other person being aroused or even disgusted or shocked. So there is a kind of reflection there.

But in that instance they are imagining the person seeing them as themselves. And I think that it is the desire of the other person that is basically what they find arousing. Whereas with AGP, as I understand it, it's seeing themselves from outside, but they are the desirable object to themselves. So in a certain sense they are both the watcher and the watched.

But if you didn't have a lot of insight, I can see that someone might think of it as "feeling sexy". and think it's the same And lots of people just aren't very insightful about their own inner processes.

CheeseMmmm · 29/11/2021 00:10

'I was puzzling my head about AGP today. A TRA was claiming that most women have AGP - it's just 'feeling sexy'.'

It's a totally male perspective. Images for yonks women in fancy underwear looking 'come and get me fellas'. Body posed in certain ways etc. Has embedded the notion that wearing underwear like that means a woman is feeling sexy. The underwear itself becomes a prompt for sex even when not on an actual woman. When you wear it you feel sexy.

Same as the common male thing if I had breasts I'd never stop playing with them. Breasts are sexy. Women have breasts. They must feel like that.

That person in I think it was telegraph expressed that merrily. That's how confident women are sexually excited but just by having breasts.

It's all male perspective, male sexuality being assumed to be how women actually are.

CheeseMmmm · 29/11/2021 00:14

Don't know how to get archive

www.telegraph.co.uk/family/life/like-new-boobs-neat-round-dont-sag/

CheeseMmmm · 29/11/2021 00:22

Trying to find some more examples as remember a couple of yikes ones.

First thing came up
medium.com/empowered-trans-woman/my-new-boobs-757009dab75d

Long. But holy moly. Only half way through. It's a piece that covers most of the thing that often gets deleted on here.

In their own words so fine and probably not to comment on the thread much.

The fact this was written for online publication in a pretty well known site is also... Interesting.

CheeseMmmm · 29/11/2021 00:23

Excerpt

'Something magnificently euphoric happened to me next. It’s fairly common for me to watch pornography while I masturbate. It excites me, and it also allows me to escape into a fantasy — a beautiful vacation home, two young, fit and beautiful bodies, perfect curves. It’s a vicarious experience — I project myself into the girl on screen. Then I happened to look down, and my eyes found my boobs. It was a delightful sight. The girl on the screen had a nice rack, and I had a nice rack as well. We matched. It was so happily congruent. It filled me with happiness. Not even a sexual happiness, just a feeling of calm, serene joy. Truly meaningful moment.'

Whatsnewpussyhat · 29/11/2021 00:48

🤮🤮🤮

CheeseMmmm · 29/11/2021 01:16

How pieces like these get published not infrequently. That shows something as well.

If a female woman wrote such explicit things as this then she would have considered it and decided whether the gains outweighed the negativity, assumptions people would make, it would stay with her for life.
Would it be published in something fairly well known? Not sure about medium general things posted although read articles linked to a fair few times.
The fact is it would be seen as erotica, soft porn, loads of men will find it arousing to read. Pic combined with text like that = for sure some will knock one out thinking about her face body and the things she describes.

If a male man wrote a piece like this it would make most women feel yuck put it away FFS. We don't want to know. And most men would be just, not impressed.

How is content by a certain subset of a certain group getting stuff like this in the press do often? Whether it's about how they love running down stairs because the sexy feeling of new breasts. I think it was jiggling.

I mean there's so many things like this and in mainstream media as well.

Why do they think, the publishers. That this is something that people will find useful? Interesting? Enlightening? Fucked if I know.