Men and paraphilias

[FindTheTruth]

Norms exist for a reason and should not be erased
threadreaderapp.com/thread/1464548294693203973.html

And in this case it's such a massive amount of entitlement and arrogance being displayed.

I think women are like this. I know how they think, behave and feel. I know how women behave towards each other and why. Personally I know it's like this because that's what I want it to be to explain why my personal thoughts and beliefs are right. And so what I want makes total sense.

Of course women do not all think behave etc the same. That's obvious to anyone who has met more than one woman in their life. Or seen them on telly / read their writing etc.

That is explained though. Like this.

The women who support me. And/ or the women who agree more or less with my view of women. They are normal, sensible and can see the truth.

Women who argue are not able to see the truth, or have personal reasons for rejecting it. Could be that they're not attractive to men and therefore unhappy and angry. They might have been radicalised into a twisted doctrine. They could be angry at men for some reason and this has damaged them. Could be a lesbian. Etc etc. Everything they say can be ignored or discarded.

We see this where there are groups with conflicting views on loads of topics.

Note:
Women support and believe all sorts of different things. Obviously. Whatever their reasons.
Plenty support or agree with most or many aspects around certain views about what women are like.
Whatever their reasons. They exist.
The knee jerk reaction to use terms like handmaiden, internalised misogny, man pleasing etc are the same reaction to disagreement. Ignore, reject. Assume and assert various things about why they can't see the truth.

In the end it's not helpful either way. However it's seemingly a natural human reaction. Seen across all topics with groups who fundamentally disagree. Imo.

I can kind of see the big boobs-hierarchy thing with teen girls, in a limited way. It makes me think of the Judy Blume book where the girls are trying to do exercises to make their busts bigger.

But that doesn't really last long, and it also kind of depends on being slim otherwise.

I can kind of see the big boobs-hierarchy thing with teen girls, in a limited way.

A lot of middle aged male transitioners seem to view themselves as teenage girls, like this one, for example:

“It’s funny, I’m 55, I am very hormonal, I am going through puberty again which means that I am just getting to my teenage girl years – so watch out world.”
🤮

I remember talking about them a lot! And a general feeling among the girls who were less developed due to age of puberty or just that's their body that they wanted them to get bigger. Like the film you mentioned although not sitting around in nightclothes chanting!

I'm sure you will not agree, but the constant messaging that big breasts are better is pushed by media outlets and certainly was in my day. Better why? To be 'attractive' although at that age that was where the thought pretty much stopped. The 'to men' part was there but at that age that bit was not really in thoughts. For loads of girls and women it never is really consciously why. Despite the common bizarre view that it's why eg schoolgirls roll up their skirts, crop tops exist etc. To often even when it's a 12 yo. It's taken that they deliberately choose those things to encourage any and all men to see them as sexually attractive and (seen often when there's a sex offence) sexually available.

The fact that girls and women are generally following prevailing fashions/ girls (like boys) want to be 'grown up' and copy those older than them/ the popular mainstream images is somehow generally NOT why girls do it. Grim IMO.

No, I agree big breasts were pushed as better when I was a teen. That was very much the fashion at the time.

Once you get older though, I think it becomes more complicated. Large breasts might be seen as great if you're Pamala Anderson, but they can be hard to dress in terms of fashion, and when the grunge/Kate Moss era came especially. And there can be a class element too, where if you want to look put together and classy, a more moderate figure is seen as better.

Anyway this concern with breast size stuff at school in no way related to any hierarchy. Some girls who were very uncool indeed, I mean some were more developed and it didn't make them popular. IME. Did it in yours?

There was also the fact that even when young we know larger breasts while theoretically an impressive thing to have, related I suppose to the wanting to grow up fast thing. We were well aware even then it was a double edged sword.

The couple of girls in my class who had big boobs received massive amounts of harrassment, inappropriate comments, lewd suggestions. From random adult men. From the age they grew for my best friend started at just 13.

Bus driver offered her to go free if she let him touch them. Nice tits/ show us your tits yelled from cars. Men staring. All that stuff.

When she grew up, I've lost count at the number of times men have grabbed her boobs in pubs.

So no. It's not as straightforward imo as you say.

And yes men interpret large breasts all to often as an indicator their owner is more up for it than other women. Sorry to use these words. But it goes- what clothes you wear if big breasts goes from, more covering to less.

Way more up for sex than other women. To deliberately wanting sexual attention of the more unpleasant type. To slutty. To deserving to be laughed at.

If a woman is not wearing a bra that gives the male approved level of pushing up and making obvious. Then they are somewhat gross. As gravity takes it's toll (and the owner gets older they get called saggy, droopy, loads of jokes. And of course if they're 'too big' and not attached to a very attractive young woman. Then they're obscene, gross.

If big breasts are sexually very attractive to men full stop. Why aren't much older women who often seem to have v large breasts the sexiest of all? (Rhetorical!).

If size is everything why was poor old Lola Ferrari a joke, rather than a sex symbol?

It's a really interesting topic.

BUT. doesn't get away from the way it's common for men to understand us better than we do. Especially in things that involve secondary sexual characteristics. That they personally essentially fetishise!

Say they understand us!!!!

😳

I grew up in the 90s when the aesthetic was very small breasted and perky - and especially, you were not considered sexy unless you were extremely thin, and could wear strappy tops and dresses with no bra/no support. I was deeply ashamed of my larger breasts, and bought those M&S Minimiser bras to hide them - having large breasts really limited what clothes you could wear. The youth culture and fashion message then was very much that bigger breasts were fat, saggy, vulgar and mumsy. Big breasts were certainly not going to give you any social points - rather the reverse!

It wasn’t until the big breasted look came back into fashion in the mid-2000s that I realised, to my utter astonishment, that suddenly they were considered sexy. That a was a definitely not my experience as a teenager or a young adult. I tried to hide them away as much as possible and was very jealous of friends who were flatter-chested.

I think something similar is driving the teen girl binding culture - not only the gender stuff, but also that the past two decades’ fashion for big breasts and bums is shifting/about to shift again.

Just realised.

The must increase bust thing is grease isn't it.

ONJ the star. Who stuns everyone esp the blokes including the v cool one she fancies.

I mean I wouldn't usually point this out but she was not massive in the bust dept by any means. Yet back then seen as vv sexy including by men. Remember physical?!

Fancy being pleased that your boobs are jiggling! One reason why women wear bras is to stop them jiggling!

Because
..

It's seen in s certain way by society esp men...

I think something similar is driving the teen girl binding culture - not only the gender stuff, but also that the past two decades’ fashion for big breasts and bums is shifting/about to shift again.

Binding. Yes.

Ironic that someone who is trans and, one assumes, quite familiar with it all doesn't realise the reasons behind breast binding. Unless they really do think all these young women are binding in order to ruin their social standing amongst peers 🙄

Teenage girls were were doing things to make their breasts less noticeable when I was at school and I'm nearly 50.

This is not a new phenomenon.

The switch from being seen/ treated as a child, to being seen/treated by loads of men as a sex object is really sudden, unsettling and confusing. And very very unwelcome. Esp when it comes young.

For loads/ most.

If you go through puberty when that bit older maybe it's more easy to get to grips with I just don't know. I mean depends on girl maybe? Or maybe as many hate it then as well and try to hide? Literally no idea outside my experience. Interested in views from anyone who did and hope not pissed anyone off! Just male gaze from what, 10? Is hideous, so young.

Thing is that across society there's a view that essentially when a girls body starts to become more adult, they somehow become sexually 'procative', know that they are 'sending signals' with their clothing hair makeup etc and often choose things deliberately to get general male sexual attention.

And society at large continues to blame creepy/ awful/ illegal male behaviour towards girls on the girls not the men.

So this phenomenon isn't going to go away.

It's such utter shit for girls experiencing this. We get used to it after a fair old while. Learn to expect, dislike and ignore. Lots of women enjoy attention from men sure. But how many it's obscene comments from random strangers on the street etc. Nope we don't like it and why would anyone think a child should ever experience this.

@CheeseMmmm

Just realised.

The must increase bust thing is grease isn't it.

ONJ the star. Who stuns everyone esp the blokes including the v cool one she fancies.

I mean I wouldn't usually point this out but she was not massive in the bust dept by any means. Yet back then seen as vv sexy including by men. Remember physical?!

No, it's from the Judy Blume book, Are You There God, It's Me, Margaret.

It seems to be younger teens who are sometimes so obsessed with breast size. Probably because they are uneven in their development, with some farther along and others still childlike, and they also are young enough they don't really understand all the factors involved in being attractive.

@foxgoosefinch

I grew up in the 90s when the aesthetic was very small breasted and perky - and especially, you were not considered sexy unless you were extremely thin, and could wear strappy tops and dresses with no bra/no support. I was deeply ashamed of my larger breasts, and bought those M&S Minimiser bras to hide them - having large breasts really limited what clothes you could wear. The youth culture and fashion message then was very much that bigger breasts were fat, saggy, vulgar and mumsy. Big breasts were certainly not going to give you any social points - rather the reverse!

It wasn’t until the big breasted look came back into fashion in the mid-2000s that I realised, to my utter astonishment, that suddenly they were considered sexy. That a was a definitely not my experience as a teenager or a young adult. I tried to hide them away as much as possible and was very jealous of friends who were flatter-chested.

I think something similar is driving the teen girl binding culture - not only the gender stuff, but also that the past two decades’ fashion for big breasts and bums is shifting/about to shift again.

Yes, heroin chic had a lot to answer for. And Kate Moss, who really was very classically beautiful I think, but man difficult to live up to if you were curvy.

Different silhouettes have certainly dominated in various eras. You might be right about a shift in body type, I notice some of the trendy clothing seems to be moving towards 90s styles, my 13 year old looks like she should be at a Nirvana concert while my 16 year old seems to be in kind of Twin Peaks mode.

It was definitely in grease. As well. That's where I know it from. Can't be the only one!

I mean, I am not sure Cheez that there is any way around the fact that when girls start to develop secondary sexual characteristics, they start to be seen in a different way. That's partly why we have them.

I am not sure, with girls, that we do them any favours by trying to avoid telling them that when they are physically mature enough to be perceived as women that what they wear can exaggerate or minimize that. It's possible to choose either, but what you can't really do is turn back time and change how mammals notice fertile partners.

Society can provide lots of scaffolding to say, these girls are to be treated as children, but not at the same time as denying that they need to do so because they are starting to not be children.

I skimmed your post Jessie and I'm not sure how it relates to the thread.

The OP was about fetishes and currently it's gone into girls, puberty, breasts. Currently talk is mainly about girls, puberty, breasts. Which stemmed from a belief someone had about women having social position decided by breast size.

Can you explain how your post relates to the topic?

All I got was a load of stuff about your sex life, and your perception of current views amongst trans people around gender presentation.

Oh and saying 'the trans' is really out of order. People is the word you are looking for.

@LobsterNapkin

I mean, I am not sure Cheez that there is any way around the fact that when girls start to develop secondary sexual characteristics, they start to be seen in a different way. That's partly why we have them.

I am not sure, with girls, that we do them any favours by trying to avoid telling them that when they are physically mature enough to be perceived as women that what they wear can exaggerate or minimize that. It's possible to choose either, but what you can't really do is turn back time and change how mammals notice fertile partners.

Society can provide lots of scaffolding to say, these girls are to be treated as children, but not at the same time as denying that they need to do so because they are starting to not be children.

No no no nope.

You are responding, I assume due to what your post says, to my previous post. You must have read it at least.

And you see fit to post that. With tone of apparently explaining the situation to someone who needs the facts started to them, because they are a bit deluded.

I have pointed out issues with what happens. Things like-

• It can start when girls are as young as 9 or 10

• Girls have for a long time been so uncomfortable with the total change in the way loads of men behave towards them when breasts start to be apparent. I mentioned obscene comments from random strangers on the street. Those words.

• Society in general taking the view that girls wearing various things are doing it on purpose because they want sexual attention from any and all men

Tbc

'Physically mature enough to be seen as women?...
you can't really do is turn back time and change how mammals notice fertile partners....'

MEN. you mean. Not everyone. Men.

How can you not have noticed that women are constantly trying to protect girls from men? Are pushing for girls to not be seen as fertile partners to men? Partners means relationship or sex partner. Fertile means old enough for impregnation.
Results.
Child marriage. IE rape. And the massive consequences of having a baby with a body that is not developed enough to really cope with it.
Girls being coerced, raped, assaulted, groomed, sold for sex.
And naturally due to what their bodies are like society treats them the same as women. What was she wearing/ why was she there/ does she have previous sexual experience, etc. Children. Who are subjected to awful things almost always be men because they 'look old enough'. And society says. Well she certainly looks old enough!

'Society can provide lots of scaffolding to say, these girls are to be treated as children, but not at the same time as denying that they need to do so because they are starting to not be children.'

Who denies that? It's the whole point! And the idea that girls still at primary school are becoming not children is just nasty.

If your point was that how societies define child age is constructed then yes that's true.

However you go beyond that by saying that when it comes to girls and men and sex. Then it's so artificial as to be totally pointless and nature will naturally prevail.

It's there to try and reduce the harm done to girls. By men.

There was a boy at DD school who matured v early.

In final primary year he was v tall, voice had broken, build, facial features of adult man.

You would then say if he had at 11 had a man on the street say something like. I'd like to suck you're cock.
That's a totally different thing to if it were the other boys in the class who looked like children. Surely.