Men and paraphilias

[FindTheTruth]

Norms exist for a reason and should not be erased
threadreaderapp.com/thread/1464548294693203973.html

I know you often join threads like this to give the 'alternative view'.

But I do think you've crossed a line here.

@CheeseMmmm

I skimmed your post Jessie and I'm not sure how it relates to the thread.

The OP was about fetishes and currently it's gone into girls, puberty, breasts. Currently talk is mainly about girls, puberty, breasts. Which stemmed from a belief someone had about women having social position decided by breast size.

Can you explain how your post relates to the topic?

All I got was a load of stuff about your sex life, and your perception of current views amongst trans people around gender presentation.

Oh and saying 'the trans' is really out of order. People is the word you are looking for.

I admire your tolerance but I think this is a troll.

Surely not?!

men and paraphilia's are at the heart of this mess. Not the Trans women with gender dysphoria but men with paraphilia's. We need to be able to name it and talk about it

THREAD BY:

Lorelei
@hatpinwoman
I’m intending to reread Men Trapped in Men’s Bodies but in the meantime I thought I’d do a thread with some extracts from the narratives of men with autogynephilia from the book

Understanding this paraphilia is imperative for all of us talking about the erosion of women’s rights

mobile.twitter.com/hatpinwoman/status/1466071208970137616

@CheeseMmmm

If your point was that how societies define child age is constructed then yes that's true.

However you go beyond that by saying that when it comes to girls and men and sex. Then it's so artificial as to be totally pointless and nature will naturally prevail.

It's there to try and reduce the harm done to girls. By men.

Not at all.

What I am saying is that the unchangeable element that we have to work with is sexual reproduction. Once we have visible secondary sexual characteristics that will be noticed. For the exact same reason people will say here that it is so difficult to not notice someone's sex. The wiring, or lizard brain, or whatever you want to call it, notices these things and links them to fertility and reproduction.

Beyond that, we have all kinds of reasons to try and construct, as you say, what counts as a child. Certainly well beyond the beginnings of puberty at nine or ten, and in our society often a fair bit beyond that.

If we want to avoid as much as possible men making inappropriate comments to girls, or girls feeling too stressed about their changing status, or just men seeing quite young women as appropriate sexual partners, that has to be done quite carefully. The signals should be quite clear, not just overt ones like "this is illegal" but also the more subtle social ones.

Our society however is quite bad at the latter. We seem to be of two minds. On the one hand people flip out if anyone admits outright that it is completely biologically normal to be sexually attracted to a person with secondary sexual characteristics, even men being attracted to girls who are legally able to consent to sex is sometimes described as gross and abnormal. At the same time, we seem to think that it's ok to dress young girls as if they were women, or claim that teen girls should be free to wear highly sexualizing fashion without it impacting whether they are seen as appropriate sexual partners.

It's like we gaslight ourselves, and it makes the situation worse for girls, not better.

That's not what you said at all though is it. What you said and the implications were awful. As per my posts.

@CheeseMmmm

That's not what you said at all though is it. What you said and the implications were awful. As per my posts.

That's is what I said. We can emphasis or not emphasize biological reproductive status through a variety of cultural media, and when we pretend that doesn't have impact, it does no favours for girls. Because we end up not using those tools. It's possible to shape behaviour, including male behaviour, but only within the limits set by nature.

I have no clue what you think I said, but it doesn't seem particularly close to what I intended. You have a tendency to assume that other posters mean something that often, they don't.

And men are more than capable of not sexually harassing women and girls.

Most don't. Most also don't see schoolgirls including older primary girls and think cor yummy. Are they a biological dead end? Or is your as soon as periods ready for fucking adult men IT'S BIOLOGY missing the point that irrespective of boobs growing periods until fully mature which takes ages, those girls are NOT a good choice for procreation as their bodies are not yet ready.

Maybe that why most men fancy GROWN UPS. want to fuck women. Young yes. 14 15 16 not good. That's still no excuse for harrassment. Which is often when girls are in school uniform which is a bit of a clue.

No you're talking ogling as soon as periods breasts. So from 10ish. Primary school.

No. You can't post a different thing and wave away what you said.

Is the followingof any interest to you whatsoever?

'Complications during pregnancy and childbirth are the leading cause of death for 15–19-year-old girls globally. '

'Adolescent mothers (ages 10–19 years) face higher risks of eclampsia, puerperal endometritis, and systemic infections than women aged 20 to 24 years, and babies of adolescent mothers face higher risks of low birth weight, preterm delivery and severe neonatal conditions.'

Fucks your 'if there's grass on the pitch then play' or whatever it is. I have heard middle aged men say that in the pub a couple of times and all laugh. I'm sure you can guess what it means.

It's NOT a good reproductive strategy. Best chances of healthy offspring are with MATURE women.

You're previous posts aren't erased by your attempt at justification.

I explained at LENGTH the parts I thought were grim and why.

Rather than acknowledge any of that. You say oh you took it wrong and you're making it up.

Nope.

You also don't realise that girls (and women) get sexually harrassed, obscene comments, sexual assault etc etc no matter WHAT THEY ARE WEARING.

That's also really out of line.

TRA's hate this book, whilst TW think it's honest. The first 11 chapters are devoted to narratives written by autogynephilic's, honest about their sexual arousal ...

Review: "I hadn't realised the extent of this as a paraphilia, a male fantasy of what it is to be a women and how they are driven to act out their imagined female role as a life performance, "Imagining being pregnant, menstruating or lactating, wearing “women’s” clothes/underwear, imagining having grown up as a little girl, showering in women’s spaces surrounded by women and “belonging” there legally, using a feminine name, having a feminine voice, tossing one’s hair"

www.amazon.co.uk/Trapped-Mens-Bodies-Autogynephilic-Transsexualism-ebook/dp/B00APXDL9E?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

What is highly sexualising fashion?
Crop tops? Tank tops? Shorts? Ripped jeans? Should teenage girls be forced to cover themselves head to toe in baggy sacks? Because I’m pretty sure that pervy men will happily interpret anything that reveals any scrap of the female form as indication that the wearer is a slutty little Lolita.
It really isn’t about what the teenager is wearing, it’s about what the man is thinking about what’s underneath the clothes. Responsibility must always be entirely on the adult.

From earlier in the thread.

A TRA was claiming that most women have AGP - it's just 'feeling sexy'.'

Men with AGP have been saying for yonks that women have it too.

is surely just taking women's requirement to self-objectify under a patriarchy and using it against us to claim it's an innate part of being a woman?

Ray Blanchard answers the Question with "I do not believe that autogynephilia occurs in natal females." and "It seems a lot less feasible when one considers the various other ways in which some autogynephilic men symbolize themselves as women in their masturbation fantasies. Examples I have collected include: sexual fantasies of menstruation and masturbatory rituals that simulate menstruation; giving oneself an enema, while imagining the anus is a vagina and the enema is a vaginal douche; helping the maid clean the house; sitting in a girls’ class at school; knitting in the company of other women; and riding a girls’ bicycle. These examples argue that autogynephilic sexual fantasies have a fetishistic flavor that makes them qualitatively different from any superficially similar ideation in natal females."

"There is also the telling phenomenon of autogynephiles who are involuntarily aroused by cross-dressing or cross-gender ideation, and who complain about difficulties changing into women’s attire without triggering erection or ejaculation. It seems likely that few natal women would give the analogous reports that they wish that they could put on their clothes without triggering vaginal lubrication or orgasm"

quillette.com/2019/11/06/what-is-autogynephilia-an-interview-with-dr-ray-blanchard/

[quote FindTheTruth]From earlier in the thread.

A TRA was claiming that most women have AGP - it's just 'feeling sexy'.'

Men with AGP have been saying for yonks that women have it too.

is surely just taking women's requirement to self-objectify under a patriarchy and using it against us to claim it's an innate part of being a woman?

Ray Blanchard answers the Question with "I do not believe that autogynephilia occurs in natal females." and "It seems a lot less feasible when one considers the various other ways in which some autogynephilic men symbolize themselves as women in their masturbation fantasies. Examples I have collected include: sexual fantasies of menstruation and masturbatory rituals that simulate menstruation; giving oneself an enema, while imagining the anus is a vagina and the enema is a vaginal douche; helping the maid clean the house; sitting in a girls’ class at school; knitting in the company of other women; and riding a girls’ bicycle. These examples argue that autogynephilic sexual fantasies have a fetishistic flavor that makes them qualitatively different from any superficially similar ideation in natal females."

"There is also the telling phenomenon of autogynephiles who are involuntarily aroused by cross-dressing or cross-gender ideation, and who complain about difficulties changing into women’s attire without triggering erection or ejaculation. It seems likely that few natal women would give the analogous reports that they wish that they could put on their clothes without triggering vaginal lubrication or orgasm"

quillette.com/2019/11/06/what-is-autogynephilia-an-interview-with-dr-ray-blanchard/[/quote]
It does make me laugh that men have to go into these realms of explanation about why women don't fetishise their own sex.

They could, you know, just ask a couple.

Find-

Those examples are SO American! And with 'maid' dunno if that's a class thing or a race thing!

Just so weird to read!

Examples obv vv different across time, country, class etc etc.

I mean 'douching' was a thing there wtf. Really not a good thing to do! Fetishising that... As if American women sqirting watered down Dettol up themselves was a sexual thing for them.

Ffffffffffs

Men KNOW that ordinary women. Their mums grannies sisters aunts friends (if any?!) don't think or feel that stuff.

They ignore that in favour of a fantasy.