Men and paraphilias

[FindTheTruth]

Norms exist for a reason and should not be erased
threadreaderapp.com/thread/1464548294693203973.html

Ah just looked not sure if anything goes but it's pieces by anyone by the look of things.

I just read the rest of that article.

It's got it all.

I mean seriously it's worth it esp if you have doubts about or don't think A*P exists.

@CheeseMmmm great posts. Thankyou. Fucked if I know, either.

I could spend hours responding to any one of a single claims made by the woman in the thread linked by the OP

Just for starters

35. We frequently see hedonism and unrestrained male sexuality accompanying the end of an Empire or period of history.

It is my understanding that false and true allegations of hedonism, by men and by women, are a common feature of revolutionary forces and also disinformation campaigns by hostile states.

These issues are explored in the excellent documentary Sex and the Swastika which can be viewed here
NSFW not suitable for minors, includes potentially traumatising accounts of sexual abuse

The history of the Roman Empire was rife with various true and false allegations of hedonism that were used politically and aimed to undermine various emperors and their wives and associates.

Catherine the Great of Russia had various false allegations made against her in an attempt to undermine her position and rule.

This is all standard stuff and should be a suprise to nobody.

35. We frequently see hedonism and unrestrained male sexuality accompanying the end of an Empire or period of history.

This may be true however it is also true that when an empire falls the victorious forces typically set about defaming the deposed ruler. Statues are defaced or destroyed and history books rewritten to include salacious accounts of depravity.

36. There are powers that wish the Western experiment with liberal democracy to end.

Not sure about the word "experiment" but I agree with the rest

37. Hostile forces may have supported the progression of paraphilliac acceptance in Western democracies, as one front in a secret war; part of a long-held political aim to undermine our position in the world

I would change the word "supported" to a more robust word such as "promoted" or even "bankrolled".

The missing part of the last statement is that that the hostile forces also promote and bankroll extremist far-right networks to create a backlash against the promotion of the paraphilliac networks. A kind of idealogical pincer movement if you like.

@CheeseMmmm

'I was puzzling my head about AGP today. A TRA was claiming that most women have AGP - it's just 'feeling sexy'.'

It's a totally male perspective. Images for yonks women in fancy underwear looking 'come and get me fellas'. Body posed in certain ways etc. Has embedded the notion that wearing underwear like that means a woman is feeling sexy. The underwear itself becomes a prompt for sex even when not on an actual woman. When you wear it you feel sexy.

Same as the common male thing if I had breasts I'd never stop playing with them. Breasts are sexy. Women have breasts. They must feel like that.

That person in I think it was telegraph expressed that merrily. That's how confident women are sexually excited but just by having breasts.

It's all male perspective, male sexuality being assumed to be how women actually are.

Exactly this. By assuming that their experience is universal, these men are simply betraying the depths of their narcissism.

The "AGP is the same as women feeling sexy" stuff is surely just taking women's requirement to self-objectify under a patriarchy and using it against us to claim it's an innate part of being a woman?

I started having sex before I became aware of porn and porn culture requirements. I can remember the before and the after.

But now it's inescapable. A bra fitting video I watched the other day seemed exclusively designed for the male gaze. Utterly ridiculous as no male is out there trying to understand why M&S still tells women to add 4 inches to their underband. Not even a male with a boob job.

[quote FindTheTruth]Norms exist for a reason and should not be erased
threadreaderapp.com/thread/1464548294693203973.html[/quote]
That is an excellent post.

A bra fitting video I watched the other day seemed exclusively designed for the male gaze. Utterly ridiculous as no male is out there trying to understand why M&S still tells women to add 4 inches to their underband. Not even a male with a boob job.

I wonder if the male gaze is so much the default and universal that it would actually be a world shaking moment for some men to realise that this is not the reality for women.

Men with AGP have been saying for yonks that women have it too. It's patently bollocks, if you'll forgive the expression.

Women do not masturbate to the idea of themselves as women, or putting on tights and skirts. Christ, we'd never never get to work.

‘I wonder if the male gaze is so much the default and universal that it would actually be a world shaking moment for some men to realise that this is not the reality for women.’

Omg I think you’re right. It has never occurred to them that women see themselves any differently to how they see them.
I was discussing this the other day with a friend who is on Tinder and gets lots of messages saying ‘nice tits’. We were thinking men must think she is actually proud to have DD boobs if they think that’s a good way to start a conversation with someone you don’t know.

@TheCountessofFitzdotterel

‘I wonder if the male gaze is so much the default and universal that it would actually be a world shaking moment for some men to realise that this is not the reality for women.’

Omg I think you’re right. It has never occurred to them that women see themselves any differently to how they see them.
I was discussing this the other day with a friend who is on Tinder and gets lots of messages saying ‘nice tits’. We were thinking men must think she is actually proud to have DD boobs if they think that’s a good way to start a conversation with someone you don’t know.

A few months back, Debbie Hayton had to be disabused of the notion that the size of a woman's breasts indicate the extent of her social cachet amongst her peers. Debbie thought that bigger breasts pushed women further up the social hierarchy amongst other women.

They'll never, ever get it.

Sexualised imagery like that has been around for yonks.

Women in bubble bath eating flake as if it's turning her on.
Adverts for tights and before that stockings with woman looking admiringly at her leg in pose to look nice with pointed toe. Stroking her leg. (I suppose she's supposed to be feeling how nice the tights are but bizarrely. Having never thought about it before and just having passively consumed those images thinking that's bizarrely sexualised. And no further. I just thought woman stroking leg. Never tights. Interesting realisation!).
Women emerging from the shower with a towel that covers not quite all of breasts and just below groin.
In my memory. Goes back further though.

On ads TV film often women tend exhibit certain behaviours repeatedly. And often they are sexy while doing their jobs etc. Depending on progs. Women wear very high heels and tight clothes as standard in many jobs esp in USA. From high court judge to head of criminal organisation to plain clothes detective to assassin. Not always. But still ubiquitous. Often sashaying is involved. Plenty of shots from behind or in front of her walking a fair way down a corridor.

It's insidious.

Even in due to circumstances in post apocalyptic/ thrown back to prehistory/ action story in jungle.

Most women still wake up, get clean, makeup, fab hair. Shave legs and armpits. And keep an eye to tops which sometimes show a bit more cleavage, short shorts to show legs, and not forgetting to stand/ walk in a 'sexy' way during the day.

It's hardly new!

And of course men know that's not what woman are like. That's not how they are. How they feel. Even if sometimes feel bath sensual. Or think these tights make my legs look nice. It's not a 24/7/365 irrepressible fundamental part of any woman's life. Even those who do those things do not keep it up at home. Always slinking out of shower with carefully minimal towel hair wet but good. Etc.

Men know this. All men know women aren't actually like this. They know it's a fantasy. And they know it's a male fantasy however much they try to ignore that knowledge.

They want it to be true. It makes women easier for them to... Navigate? Deal with? Makes it easier to dismiss them, see them as totally different to men. Label them. Decide the reason some do things they don't like.

Do I need to namalt at this point? Probably. IME though most men I've known even the nice ones. If you get to know them well and they're nice blokes etc. Will let slip something related to this in some way.

Examples of why it relates to women labelling etc.

The fantasy is that women's primary innate fundamental driver is to CONSCIOUSLY and deliberately be viewed as sexually desirable to men in general. Not ones they fancy even. Just any. Most. All.

Older women who express things they don't like.
Bitter because men don't fancy them. Hairy. Ugly.
Young women who express things men don't like. Or reject their advances more bluntly than required.
Lesbians.
Women who don't enjoy / speak out against things like catcalling, pat on the bum in the pub, lecherous comments from car, sexualised 'banter' at work.
Prudes / frigid / humourless bores who 'don't get it'.

And so on.

Deciding that the fantasy that it's the norm for women to be constantly angling for male sexual attention. And that's because they are just sexy all the time naturally.
Is a very useful and flattering idea.

The male gaze is rewritten as women's desire to draw the male gaze. It's not their fault if they look, that's what women want!

Yep new thoughts for me all fitting together!

A few months back, Debbie Hayton had to be disabused of the notion that the size of a woman's breasts indicate the extent of her social cachet amongst her peers. Debbie thought that bigger breasts pushed women further up the social hierarchy amongst other women.

I had to google Debbie Hayton to find out why she would think that, and .. oh.

A few months back, Debbie Hayton had to be disabused of the notion that the size of a woman's breasts indicate the extent of her social cachet amongst her peers. Debbie thought that bigger breasts pushed women further up the social hierarchy amongst other women.

I missed that development and I'm truly sorry that I didn't remain in ignorance but I accept it's useful to know these things.

Same reason for what I wrote above.

I'm not saying that any individual TW consciouly comes up with this stuff.

We all know that the constant messaging of men are like this and we women are like that has massive impact, is insidious.

Women do this with men all the time as well when an easy answer to a question that's not comfy is just so much better.

With men when it comes to women it's really pushed hard, constant, and society nods along. And it overlaps strongly with porn of all types from soft all the way through. And so is intertwined with that basic drive. For most reinforced through puberty surely, when most young men are extremely, can I say frisky? I'd think associations reinforced often, and at that age. Will generally take pretty deep root.

The fantasy of women as doing everything to be sexually appealing to men, doing so much for men's approval. And more than that. Being so constantly up for it that they even get turned on eating chocolate (or feeding the cat wtf). I mean that's going to be irresistible!

From the that men know women better than women do. The skies the limit! And leads to do much- in this case- the superimposing of the idea there's constant competition between women (that's why they are all bitchy). The women with the things that are currently 'sexy' for women win. The other women admire and despise them.

In this case the belief that women have a hierarchy of social cachet (in general and ubiquitous) based on things like breast size is obviously ludicrous if stop to think about real life and women they know etc.

And yet. It's a male centred flattering view, which also dismisses women as being essentially all the same and shallow and living for male attention.

They don't WANT to know. To the extent that must never stop to think about it, or accidentally listen to things that day otherwise. If they do it's said by bitter flat chested lesbian feminist maniac. Simple!

@CheeseMmmm

Same reason for what I wrote above.

I'm not saying that any individual TW consciouly comes up with this stuff.

We all know that the constant messaging of men are like this and we women are like that has massive impact, is insidious.

Women do this with men all the time as well when an easy answer to a question that's not comfy is just so much better.

With men when it comes to women it's really pushed hard, constant, and society nods along. And it overlaps strongly with porn of all types from soft all the way through. And so is intertwined with that basic drive. For most reinforced through puberty surely, when most young men are extremely, can I say frisky? I'd think associations reinforced often, and at that age. Will generally take pretty deep root.

The fantasy of women as doing everything to be sexually appealing to men, doing so much for men's approval. And more than that. Being so constantly up for it that they even get turned on eating chocolate (or feeding the cat wtf). I mean that's going to be irresistible!

From the that men know women better than women do. The skies the limit! And leads to do much- in this case- the superimposing of the idea there's constant competition between women (that's why they are all bitchy). The women with the things that are currently 'sexy' for women win. The other women admire and despise them.

In this case the belief that women have a hierarchy of social cachet (in general and ubiquitous) based on things like breast size is obviously ludicrous if stop to think about real life and women they know etc.

And yet. It's a male centred flattering view, which also dismisses women as being essentially all the same and shallow and living for male attention.

They don't WANT to know. To the extent that must never stop to think about it, or accidentally listen to things that day otherwise. If they do it's said by bitter flat chested lesbian feminist maniac. Simple!

I recognise this.

I'm a member of a sports club and one of the coaches said something sexually inappropriate to a passing stranger while representing the club.

One of the female members complained.

The take of a couple of the male members was that the complainant had recently had a baby and so was jealous of the figure of the passing stranger. wtf.

It's so common I've heard it so many times. And often not so in your face as that!

And of course loads of women support the men on this. And also use the same reasons other women disagree. See it all the time. She's spoiling the fun, doesn't bother me, just banter etc.

@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus

A few months back, Debbie Hayton had to be disabused of the notion that the size of a woman's breasts indicate the extent of her social cachet amongst her peers. Debbie thought that bigger breasts pushed women further up the social hierarchy amongst other women.

I missed that development and I'm truly sorry that I didn't remain in ignorance but I accept it's useful to know these things.

It has a certain kind of logic. Many men infer an automatic sexual signal from bigger breasts than they don't from smaller breasts. Big breasted women will often spend a (vastly irritating) lifetime being addressed at chest level by some men.

A man who has AGP, and, in my opinion, is identifying with, and as, an entirely male view of what a woman is, would quite likely be viewing bigger breasts as a hierarchical concept, as it's something that they themselves will often grade.

Coupled with the fact that it would appear that relentless male attention and demands for sex is something that these men view as highly desirable, it's little wonder that their opinion of what an actual woman is, is so skewed.

And, again in my opinion, leads to a lot of the conflict between them and us. They are viewing their version of womanhood as an entirely male constructed edifice with little or zero realisation of quite how fake it is.

Coupled with the fact that it would appear that relentless male attention and demands for sex is something that these men view as highly desirable

I remember Jane Clare Jones saying that when she became aware of desire as a teenager she thought "Oh, this is nice" for about 5 minutes until she'd had enough experiences of being shoved up against a wall or touched against her will to shift her thinking to, "This is terrifying" (I paraphrase).

You're spot on that it's such a completely different perspective that it's utterly divorced from the reality as it's lived by women.

The weird think is that plenty of men don't prefer really big boobs.

But due to the messaging I mentioned. Large breasts are still embedded as shouting 'SEX!' in the same way as frilly knickers etc.

This is the thread with D. Hayton butting in to talk about developing breasts signalling sexual reproductive availability to men and larger breasts giving social status among women. This is not normal male cluelessness. This is Hayton's explanation of Erotic Target Location Error. I don't believe for a second that Hayton actually thinks girls and women feel like h does or the things he says about girls and women are true when Hayton is a teacher of 11-16 year olds and is married to a woman. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4303993-posie-parker-s-latest-glasgow?pg=8.

As someone with big boobs this has not been my experience. Life would’ve been a LOT easier with smaller ones. But I can imagine why men not think that.

Anyway…

There were a couple of threads about this article, but they seem to have been zapped. I think it’s probably worth posting it here as it’s a lesbian mag platforming male paraphilia.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/divamag.co.uk/2021/11/24/trans-on-the-run-origins/amp/

Thank you missed that thread. Blimey. This one summed up what's going on with all of this IE women are what men say they are:

'From a male perspective I'd say that female breasts are a sexual signal. We tend to notice them'

And thus breast size underpins female social position.

Fucks sake!

All the time loads of women have said that NO ONE can really understand what it's like to be anyone else. And when it comes to things with major differences like sex. With such huge differences due to biology and society. Then not going to happen. You're always an outsider looking in. You might be able to relate / empathise well. But you can't KNOW unless you've experienced it. All your life and without any way to avoid it. I would never know I know fundamentally what it's like to be a man in England. Any more than a woman in Afghanistan or Mexico or Iceland. Or even a woman in England 70 years ago.

How is that not a total given? I would say because saying you can, means you don't have to listen to people of another group who say things you don't like, and feel it's fair to do so. Eg. This is about enjoying victim status/ actually about hating the group being criticised. It's really not that bad for black people/ people in poverty/ women experiencing DV as is claimed. Etc etc.