Are you watching Womanhood?

[EachandEveryone]

Its just starting on bbc2 I know they are celebs but its interesting how the ypung women are opening up to them. Really sad tbh.

99.999% of trans women just want to peacefully get changed in a room in which they sincerely identify, we shouldn’t be persecuting them because of one or two bad eggs

I want to be able to peacefully get changed in a room for females too. Why do you think I shouldn’t be able to do that anymore because a person who is not a woman has decided that they need equal access to my rights to a single sex space to validate their identity? Refusing to share my right to a single sex space with someone of a different sex is not persecution.

No. You cannot have our spaces. You might be happy to share them but I am not. The answer is no.

So much comes down to male entitlement

Males say this is how things are and females are expected to fall in line

And to put their feelings first

these are people have felt like they are in the wrong body

In the same way that anorexics feel they are in a body that is too fat?

I lost the understanding for gender theory when I met up with my teenage niece. It was positively refreshing to see a teenage girl with short hair these days.

But no, as she apparently lacks the feminitiy which makes one a woman, she is taking testosterone and awaiting surgery to cut off healthy breasts.

So I make no apologies for finding this ideology neither 'kind' nor 'progressive'

I found the location for the chat with Dr Nic odd - a cold, harshly tiled changing room, people standing, confrontational - contrast with bedrooms and sofas and sunny golfing grounds or drinks at a nightclub. Stage set for a heavily edited and pre-decided conclusion.

Really grateful for Nic and her courage and conviction and willingness to put the message across whatever the situation.

@serendipitea

I found the location for the chat with Dr Nic odd - a cold, harshly tiled changing room, people standing, confrontational - contrast with bedrooms and sofas and sunny golfing grounds or drinks at a nightclub. Stage set for a heavily edited and pre-decided conclusion.

Really grateful for Nic and her courage and conviction and willingness to put the message across whatever the situation.

She's written about what it was like from her perspective on twitter.

For me it was a gruelling & hostile interview lasting well over 90 mins, pinned by the stare of a glaring Suzi Ruffell who dominated the questioning. Trying to get me to reveal my hatred - she of course failed. Women like me don't hate. We just think women matter in this too /19

twitter.com/fairplaywomen/status/1464604061509070848?t=ET7DMPTza0j1ll2gknSx0A&s=19

Women like me don't hate. We just think women matter in this too

I think this is the key issue.

The women on the program don't think women matter as much as their own careers. They are never going to prioritise women ahead of the wants of men so long as the people who pay them say so.

If the tide turn and women suddenly become human to the tv executives, they'll all pretend women in prisons and teenager in changing rooms need space aways from men after all.

None of them are focus on anything apart from their next paycheck.

Arse. I meant paycheque.

@Appalonia

What a bloody wasted opportunity. Hugely disappointing and infuriating.

I agree. It was bland and superficial, although there were a couple of moments of insight. 'Six women in a house' seemed contrived to create a sense of a virtual reality show, i.e. not that serious, rather than an opportunity to give women a voice. It would have been interesting to move around the country and speak to women in many different walks of life - that would have shown far more effectively the battles that so many women face daily. There was a tiny bit of this - it would have been good to let the mothers at the nursery say more or interview the original founder of Reclaim the Night about still having to march 50 years on.

The coercive control workshop was interesting, but the script was a bit OTT. So much CC is dressed up as love and concern, which is why it's so hard to spot when it's happening to you.

Interviewing the young women who was selling her body and in 'total control' enabled them to opt out of tackling the issue of prostitution and how much it harms women. But the poor lamb - did you pick up how much support she got from her father? Is it only me who found that creepy and even pimpish? When the women talked about this afterwards, they didn't discuss how offering these 'services' perpetuates men's view of women as chattels.

The trans section was a travesty as it didn't touch on the crucial issue, which is that if you open the doors to trans women, predatory men in dresses will come in. As we have seen.
(I was expecting there to be an item on trans women because - as we all know - the BBC wsa in thrall to SW.)

What a missed opportunity for serious discussion. And I still don't know what 'womanhood' is!

I'm not sure if I missed a part but was it ever made clear just how the trans woman's biological sex was kept secret from her husband for so long?

No it was explained to Shirley that it was a rude question to ask

We are not to ask about genitals but of course the question with come up if you divulge such information all that was asked was how could they not know

A real vagina and a made vagina are different

So there can be a few reasons why he wasn’t aware (though I could tell straight away but that’s bigoted)

I am so angry about this program, please does anyone have a link to how to complain to the BBC about this? And I implore all of you if you feel the same, to do this?

It was explained to Shirley in an incredibly patronising and deliberately hectoring tone, I thought. She hadn't been rude, given the context of their conversation - and if the editors hadn't wanted the lasting message to be, don't ask questions of transpeople, you are being offensive, well they could simply have edited it all out. It came across to me as the programme makers deciding to use Shirley's very reasonable question as an opportunity to "educate" (intimidate) the public into unquestioning acceptance of all things trans. Up to, and including, deceiving your partner for 4 years.

I really felt for Shirley - despite disagreeing with her views elsewhere in the programme. She looked humiliated. And confused, as there were Still mixed messages about what is and isn't acceptable to ask (something else was said about no questions being wrong, but they way they were asked).

@Wishineverchangedmyname

I'm not sure if I missed a part but was it ever made clear just how the trans woman's biological sex was kept secret from her husband for so long?

The response was a fairly sharp "do you realise it's rude to talk about genitals?"

I think I would have replied that it's not just genitals, but the whole body shape/hands etc. Did this person not discuss medication/checkups? Do transitioners not need regular medication?

I'm guessing the answer isn't that he genuinely couldn't tell, because surely they would just have answered "he couldn't tell at all". No discussion of genitals actually needed.

@Appalonia

I am so angry about this program, please does anyone have a link to how to complain to the BBC about this? And I implore all of you if you feel the same, to do this?

Yes!

There isn't a feedback programme on BBC TV any more, but there is a complaints page where you can complete a form or phone the number.

www.bbc.co.uk/contact/complaints

I'm going to phone when I've finalised my spiel and send a form as well.

Thanks to PP's who answered my earlier question. I am honestly so confused as to how he didn't know. How can it be acceptable to keep something like that from your partner for years? And how are we supposed to be 'educated' if they refuse to answer genuine questions?

I think the programme was quite reasonable in the sense that it was clearly aimed at the 99% of the population who don't know and think about these issues a lot already. Which is what I would expect from a public broadcaster on Friday primetime.

You don't see a lot of programmes with women of different ages in any context at all, so I liked that aspect of it.

@wishineverchangedmyname

I don't think it is acceptable to keep your sex a secret - or try to.

And I don't think the intention is to educate any of us. It's to stop anyone asking questions that might cause transpeople to have to confront basic truths and reality, and to protect their feelings at the expense of compelling speech and controlling the rest of us.

My guess is that the only way a person in that situation could have been genuinely unaware- and even then, it would be a remarkably unobservant person, as a PP mentioned, who didn't notice small tells such as gait, hand and feet sizes etc - would be if they had had no sexual relationship. I think it is far likelier that the finance suspected but the TW didn't want to admit that on camera as it acknowledged that they didn't "pass" and so obfuscated and refused to answer the question, and in doing so tried to distract and discourage further questions by making out Shirley was the bad guy for asking.

And there was no need to bring genitals into it at all - that was classic reversal, as the TW was the only person who mentioned them.

Just complaint. I felt it was so hollow and insensitive just a day after international day against violence against women.

I could not believe this upper middle class women with a life style very few can enjoy, where opening their hearts about all kinds of personal issues and when it gets to transwomen you cannot ask a personal question that actually followed from the topic volunteered by the trans person. 🤷🏻‍♀️

Do people on here genuinely not see trans women as women?

No. I don’t, at any rate.

What I understand by “woman” is “adult human female”, therefore someone who is an adult human male is clearly not a woman.

What exactly do you understand by the word woman? Exactly, precisely? What is it that you think is universally true of all the people I call woman and all the people you call “trans women”? What is it we all have in common? Remember that there are many women who don’t perform gender stereotypes and they are still women, so your universal commonality obviously has to include them.

I would really like to know exactly what this commonality between us is supposed to be.

(Oh, and you’re really out of touch with current trans ideology - gender dysphoria is no longer a prerequisite for identifying as trans, many male people who identify as trans are perfectly happy with their perfectly male bodies and distinctly male appearance. Not that I believe a male having gender dysphoria makes him a woman anyway, but if you’re going to go in to bat as a trans ally, you really ought to be up to speed with what you’re talking about.)

Late to party, watching now.

Just got to consent part.

The flirting banter bit was infuriating!

I've been a feminist since before I knew the word. Since I was small.. Can't be exact but 6-9 I can remember being confused and annoyed about things which I later realised were to do with sexism.

So 40 years later with a strong interest for all those years, reading, years on here, going to feminist conferences etc. But most of all. Seeing so much during my life.

My reaction to some of what I've seen on this prog provokes a very strong negative reaction!

However the things I've gone Jesus Christ. DO reflect the views of a massive amount of the population including masses of women.

Sometimes it's good to remember/have a reminder of that and just how popular opinion is. (Those men golfing! Same views as pretty much all the men I've met at work all the places I worked over decades.)

Difficult viewing.

interview lasting well over 90 mins

As a BBC license payer, I want to see the whole interview

Was the TW married to a gay man or a very naive bloke? She was so rude to Shirley I felt sick for her.

I await a programme called "Manhood", where a small group of male celebrities are put together to represent the thoughts and attitudes of the entire male population. I could think of a couple equivalent to Kirsty Wark, and there are men on the Strictly panel. But I can't think of the equivalent of a washed up, not even that successful at the time, pop singer and a not very good but somehow well-known comedian.....

It was awful. Like a right on loose women
So much surgery in that room and the conversations
The build up to meeting Nic seemed ridiculous and contrived. God help us if that's the future