Are you watching Womanhood?

[EachandEveryone]

Its just starting on bbc2 I know they are celebs but its interesting how the ypung women are opening up to them. Really sad tbh.

Do people on here genuinely not see trans women as women? In my mind that’s mad, these are people have felt like they are in the wrong body almost their entire lives, and finally feel at peace once they have transitioned.

Firstly, no - I genuinely and sincerely don't think anyone born & raised as one sex, has a clue what it's like to be the other.

I can 100% understand not wanting to adhere to stereotypes & feeling deeply uncomfortable with the expectations placed on you because of your sex. I can understand wanting to escape them & live a life free of such expectations. I can understand wanting to wear whatever you like, in the colours & styles you like.

I can't understand for the life of me (and I've really tried) how any of that cosmetic expression makes you the opposite sex.

And nobody will break if down for me either, other than 'be kind' or 'inner feelings'. All while not giving a fuck that a male expressed his entitlement by taking a women's place at the Olympics, a male is telling rape victims to reframe their trauma, and males convicted of sexual assault on women have been (and are still) locked up with female prisoners because (and this is written down in a MOJ review) the mental health of trans prisoners is more important than the physical safety and mental health of female ones.

Can someone explain to me why 'be kind' says fuck you to all those women, in favour of males?

Do people on here genuinely not see trans women as women? In my mind that’s mad

This is like asking if most people on here genuinely don't see that the earth is flat. In my mind (and most of the population's) it is mad to saw that TWAW.

Do I genuinely not think trans women are women?

Well no obviously not because they’re men otherwise what would they be transition from and too?

I Mean Danielle says they’re a woman. Do you think I’m mad to say they’re not?

I've woken up even more disappointed by this programme.

For a programme supposedly about women it really centred the feeling of men. Rapists, users of pornography, transwomen were all subjects of sympathy and concern.

Depressing.

I heard Jacqueline being interviewed about this and was interested. It sounds infuriating so I am glad I didn’t bother!

@Heidi1982 same. It's actually really bothered me. This is a 90 minute programme (supposedly) about women, by our national broadcaster, and the message ends up being "what about the poor men?".

The poor rapists. The poor porn buyers. The poor folx committing sex by deception. The poor penis havers Dr Nic wants out of women's spaces.

It's absolutely maddening but a good example of the #BeKind drive and the terrible impact it has on women and our safety.

As PPs have said, such a wasted opportunity with no joining of the dots. It was so frustrating that I wish I'd never watched it.

We had Sinitta, who had obviously had cosmetic surgery, aghast that young women were getting cosmetic surgery. We had the classic "I'm having the surgery for myself not for anyone else", yet no discussion of the reasons why women feel the need to alter their appearances apart from social media influences.

Shirley thinking a pat on the arse by a man is a bit of fun, that women are too sensitive about bantz 🙄

We had no mention of the serious issue of TW in female sports, female prisons, female refuges, etc, and how self ID could allow intact males in with the most vulnerable women. No mention of how sex crimes commited by males who self ID as women are being recorded as female crimes.

Then Shirley asking the TW how her fiance of 3-4 years didn't realise she was actually a he, and the TW refusing to answer. That the TW wasn't challenged on WTF s/he didn't tell their fiance this extremely important piece of information within the first few dates.

The Only Fans woman who felt “liberated” by dropping out of uni, with her dad's blessing(!), to earn huge amounts of money doing online sex work, yet no mention of why we have a situation in society where young women can earn more doing that than in a, for want of a better word, worthy career. No mention of why we have so many sleazy men who will buy these services and how that attitude impacts all women.

Do people on here genuinely not see trans women as women?
No, I see them as men who want to be women, but underneath all the cosmetic surgery (and don't forget most keep their penises!) and hormones, they are fundamentally still men. I know 3 TW, 1 very well, and s/he doesn't even call herself a woman.

I'm sick of #BeKind, of #NoDebate, and I'm sick of wasted opportunities to enlighten the public like this pile of shite programme 😡😢 It could've been so much better but felt largely superficial.

I found the reaction of the woman with the short hair (a podcaster I think?) to meeting Nic very odd. I mean she was having a bit of a meltdown. She was going to meet a woman in swimming pool changing rooms who had a different opinion to her and she could barely cope. Yet at the same time, couldn't understand why other women wouldn't want to get naked next to strange men.

@aweegc that was comedian Suzi Ruffell. I really hoped that as a lesbian, and after all the recent hoo-ha about intact male TW pressuring lesbians into sex, that she'd be able to think more critically. But no, she initially refused to be a part of that debate, then was clearly closed off when she did 🙁

It sounds really stupid and annoying and biased, I think I'll give it a miss.

I can't bear to watch this programme now. Was there any mention of intelligent women just going about their lives, making invaluable contributions to medicine, science, engineering, politics, society in general?

Or was the whole thing focused purely on women as "other", and the ways in which these mystical, capricious, sexy beasts differ from "standard" (male) people?

I remember Sinitta being on a programme about surrogacy or adopting a child (sorry, can’t remember which). She had a living room that was all white and she explained the children wouldn’t be allowed in said living room once they had arrived/been delivered.
There were certain areas of the house which would be off limits to the children, she proudly explained.
It was heartwarming as I’m sure you can imagine.

Do people on here genuinely not see trans women as women?

Absolutely not. And nothing to do with fear either, it's just fact.

The same way the earth is not flat.

I see those who say TWAW exactly the same as flat-earthers.

I was going to watch on catch up today but I do t think I’ll bother. It sounds disappointingly dreadful.

Do people on here genuinely not see trans women as women?

No. I don’t. They are men.

Blimey I am so glad I didn't watch this now, my blood pressure couldn't have taken it.

To me it's the BBC trying to be all serious and making the mistake that fame = intelligence. I am always roundly disabused of this notion whenever I watch celebrities on quiz shows and am totally blown away by their complete lack of general knowledge.

To the pp re TWAW. No they are not and I will never believe that they are.

All this "born in the wrong body" really pisses me off too. I have a disability. I wish I could have had another, fully functioning body but I can't.

A couple of people have made the comparison between flat earthism and gender identity theory so I'll take the opportunity to recommend this novel: The End of the World is Flat

www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B098KS95KX/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apan_glt_dl_3YM5C27F1DV0JMGVKP4Y?tag=mumsnetforu03-21

I'm totally confused how Suzi Ruffell, a stand-up comedian ffs, could barely put up with listening to someone who had different views from herself. How does she manage to do her job?

Also, the Only Fans young woman - how upsetting hearing what her dad said to her. Our DD is a student. I just can't imagine DH saying to her, what, you earn how much! Just crack on.

Sinnott adopted after trying surrogacy

@Jizzle - I admit that up until a short time ago I would have broadly been of the 'live and let live' oopinion that you have. What harm can being sympathetic and inclusive of this small marginalised group of transwown do? Fast forward to today, when as a result of the gender ideology that underpins this and is being heavily promoted in schools, workplaces (they/them anyone?) and government and public bodies, via LGBTQ+ lobbyists such as Stonewall, my preteen DD is chestbinding and thinking about cross sex hormone therapy, obsessed with whether she's a lesbian (absolutely a non issue for me - crack on) gay boy or Pan sexual, all of which she and her peers are being celebrated for at school with school paying external agencies to teach them all about it. It is no coincidence that referrals to Gender Identity clinics for teenage girls has increased by something like 4000% in the past few years. Why do you think this could be? This is just one impact which is on children/young lesbian/gay/bi people who are being coerced into believing that they are in the wrong body. It's sets them up for a lifetime of medical intervention with irreversible damage- sterilisation, double mastectomy, testosterone for life, leading to problems such as vaginal atrophy. But hey, they'll be happy right? Making decisions in their teens that they'll have to live with forever. We are letting some very very important hard won sex based rights slide for the sake of this dangerous ideology that people can be born in the wrong body. This is just one aspect, but the GI ideology doesn't limit itself to wrecking children and LBG people's lives. It is affecting all a aspects where biological sex matters -such as law and health - cervix havers, birthing parent, menstruator, slowly but surely women are being irradicated all because we should be 'inclusive and kind'. My eyes are well and truly opened now. And if you think for one minute that surely if it was such a big issue the BBC woukd address it in the programme as an unbiased trustworthy media source, think again. The whole #no debate and influence of Stonewall at the BBC ensure that the reporting is anything but. People that try to talk about it are losing their jobs - Kathleen Stock, and accused of being transphobic - JK Rowling. I recommend the Stephen Nolan podcast 'Nolan Investigates' as a good entry level, easily accessible resource as a starting point. As a result of which it exposed the malign influence of Stonewall at the BBC and covers the main areas of the trans debate. Are you aware for example that a central belief of GI is that anyone can identify however they choose? My hairy faced, broad shouldered, tall, trouser wearing, penis having, husband could self ID as a lesbian (I kid you not!) and use whatever toilet or changing room he damned well pleases under this belief? Is that okay with you? Happy for him to be in the same swimming pool communal female changing room as you or your child? Happy to be naked in front of him or see his penis? Whilst I know my DH wouldn't, there are plenty that would. Whilst the Nolan podcast is a BBC programme he did tackle the issues head on and rocked the boat at the BBC but is so recent that it may not have had any impact on the programme last night. If you can't understand why people on Mumsnet don't support TW acessing female only spaces, this is why.

I'm totally confused how Suzi Ruffell, a stand-up comedian ffs, could barely put up with listening to someone who had different views from herself. How does she manage to do her job?

I found Suzi's anger fascinating. She genuinely wants to be kind. She genuinely wants to be an ally to the trans community. But she can't contemplate the other side, listen to their arguments, consider the feelings of vulnerable women.

Could that be because somewhere deep inside... she knows they are right?

What the betting @Jizzle comes back and reads anyone else’s points of view?

Yeah, I think the majority of us thought like you once. Most women here are liberal and left-wing and had the attitude of live and let live. Trans women were homosexual men with severe dysphoria and were no threat to us.

But something changed, and more and more women are becoming aware of that. The information is all there, if you want to see it.

I found Suzi's anger fascinating. She genuinely wants to be kind. She genuinely wants to be an ally to the trans community. But she can't contemplate the other side, listen to their arguments, consider the feelings of vulnerable women.

Eye opening wasn't it? The sheer vitriol was palpable and quite OTT.

I have varying degrees of fondness for Curtis Mayfield, Jerk chicken and marijuana that somehow makes me black.

FFS

I was disappointed I found the fawning over transwomen irritating (similar to fawning over gay men that so many women do)

Though I don’t blame Shirely for saying she didn’t know how she would feel if she were in a changing room and a trans women was also in there. I think we all know how she would feel but we also know that absolute backlash she would receive and it would impact her career badly

Suzi was interesting I wonder how she feels about become called a bigot if she didn’t want to be intimate with a women who has a penis aka as a male

The two young women, well I found that disappointing especially the fathers comments.

Ans no I do not see trans women as women regardless of what treatment they have had as they are not women. I prefer to believe scientific facts based on biology that an ideology

Suzi has so much internalised misogyny her head was about to explode.

Why does she feel more empathy with men than with lesbians?

Would she be happy with a sexual partner who didn't tell her they had a penis for 4 years?

If she's put in prison would she want to share a cell with anyone with a penis?

No mention of mothers at all!!!