Are you watching Womanhood?

[EachandEveryone]

Its just starting on bbc2 I know they are celebs but its interesting how the ypung women are opening up to them. Really sad tbh.

Could one bad person attack you, sure, but they could do that anywhere.

A genuine request. Have you seen any research that has proven that transitioning has reduced the rate at which males commit sex crimes? Because there is research that shows little change and that it certainly is not reduced to anything like the female rate of sex crime. And the UK prison statistics show that there is now decrease at all. They indicate the opposite.

Please do tell us why you believe that transitioning reduces the rate of sex crime in males? If you have seen studies we haven’t, I would be genuinely interested in seeing and reading them. The actual studies, not someone’s dissemination of the study. The original source.

Otherwise you are telling women to ignore the facts and just ‘be kind’. Why?

I think the younger comedian is obviously only known trans women who have genuine dismorhia and would hide themselves if changing in a womens changing room.

Would sinuta really smile bravely at a trans women in a spa hot tub, exposing themselves with young girls around.

And the illogical ness of they would not be safe in a mens prison with men! So men are a danger? But that somehow disappears?

And i as surprised the fiancé of the lady was all cool about it, but after 3-4 years that's a shocking amount of time to hide something that should be revealed within a few dates I'd have thought.

Jizzle you brought up beards.

Do you think transwomen can't/shouldn't have beards?

I gave up at the cosmetic surgery bloody hairline bit. It all seemed disingenuous. Kirsty Wark calling herself a tag hag .. it was all a bit like a Boots ad "here come the girls" with Shirls strutting through Leeds city centre in her sparkly trousers. What a wasted opportunity.

Trans women are trans women. They absolutely aren't women. What makes a trans woman a real woman? How they dress? How they speak? How they act? How is a trans woman the same as me? What is a woman? The idea that a man can put a dress on, do their nails and pretend to have fucking period cramps from their hormone treatment does not make them a woman. No. I don't like dresses, or make up, or do my nails. Am I less of a woman?

If a woman is literally anything you want it to be then yes... Twaw- or chickens, or trees, or pilau rice or whatever the hell else they want to be because magical thinking and words that don't mean anything are a thing now. 🤷🏼‍♀️🙄

@Imnobody4

The whole programme was a complete mess. I feel quite insulted by it. That lawyer was a total prat. The reaction to Dr Jessica Taylor's bit was interesting. They seemed to grasp the dynamics of coercive control but then can't recognise the manipulation of TWAW, be kind narrative.

So much cognitive dissonance.

They also grasped the tragedy of young women having cosmetic surgery and the evils of social media but failed to join the dots with Only Fans and seemed much more concerned for the poor menz being exploited.

And there was much shock horror at the poor women-born-in-the-wrong-body to whom we must be super kind because clearly their distress far outweighs any cis (sic) woman's.

Missed opportunity.

Typical.

99.999% of trans women just want to peacefully get changed in a room in which they sincerely identify, we shouldn’t be persecuting them because of one or two bad eggs

Why do their 'wants' trump those of many women and girls? Why are TW feelings the only ones that matter?

Rhetorical questions, we already know why

TW have never and can never be in female single sex spaces, all they can ever do is destroy a female single sex space by entering it and making it mixed sex.

Do people on here genuinely not see trans women as women?

I can't speak for anyone else here, but I don't, no. Women are female.

In my mind that’s mad, these are people have felt like they are in the wrong body almost their entire lives, and finally feel at peace once they have transitioned.

I wouldn't be quite so rude about you, but I do find the idea that woman is a feeling in a man's head incredibly offensive. Anyone can feel they ought to be something that they are not. A democratic society does not normally force people to accept these wholly internal, untestable, unverifiable feelings as true and superseding material reality. What you're asking for is undemocratic and authoritarian.

And to believe that one can be born in the wrong body is to believe in a disembodied, metaphysical entity inhabiting our bodies. One that is sexed that can somehow end up in an opposite-sex body.

I'm an atheist, I just don't believe in souls, whatever name you might give them.

Could one bad person attack you, sure, but they could do that anywhere.

Could a car driver drink and drive, yeah, but they could do that anywhere.

Could someone murder, yeah sure.

Could someone rob your house, yeah sure.

Why bother having laws to protect us at all? That's your argument here. You reject safeguarding because it isn't 100% effective. No single safeguarding measure is. That's why we use a Swiss cheese model for safeguarding. Each layer has holes in coverage that an offender could exploit, but each layer has those holes in slightly different places. The offender might get through a hole in one layer only to be stopped by the next layer. This is also how safeguarding works for children, patients, consumers or vulnerable adults.

I think people have built up this fear in their heads that some blocks with a beard is going to walk in and it simply isn’t going to happen.

Would you like to tell that to the mothers and their little girls in Scotland who bravely told the court how distressed they are about what one such offender did to them after entering the female toilets in local supermarkets? Wouldn't have happened without these new self-id policies.

You are treating as a hypothetical something that has already happened many times. In every country where self-id was adopted in laws, policy and practice.

What's your number? How many women and girls would need to be victimised for you to say enough? Or are they all just collateral damage to you?

And I have encountered such males myself. Do they not exist in your view, are we all liars, including those little girls and the witnesses or what?

For me, the risk of alienating these woman who finally get to be who they have always been is far more dangerous than the risk posed by a rogue man

For me the reality of excluding some of our most vulnerable and marginalised women and girls who cannot use mixed-sex provisions is a far greater concern than the validation desires of males who claim womanhood. These women and girls are excluded even if such males have no nefarious intent. Their presence makes a formerly female-only provision into a mixed-sex one that they cannot use.

Where do you propose they go? Bearing in mind that there are many more of these women and girls than there are men claiming womanhood. Have you considered being kind to them?

prints out what @CharlieParley said, frames it and hangs it up on the wall

i expected better of Kirsty, some critical thinking at least

just want to peacefully get changed in a room in which they sincerely identify

Why should we give up our single sex spaces just because it hurts male feelings when they are told no?

@tootiredtobother

i expected better of Kirsty, some critical thinking at least

You're not familiar with her work, then.

Urgh, yes, Kirsty calling herself a 'tag hag' kind of set the bar really. Always good to start off a programme about Womanhood by describing yourself in misogynistic language.

For a programme about Womanhood it was very men-centric (and always TWs never TMs. Men men men. Look at me!).

And the Only Fans girl whose dad (her dad!) told her to drop out of uni coz cam work paid more 'than her lecturers could ever earn.' I mean that's a whole other programme (and a lifetime of therapy) right there.

The truest bit were the young mothers interviewed at soft play. The ones who were juggling everything and realised the sacrifices they were making and what they were giving up. Because of biology. Shirley got that bit for sure.

@tootiredtobother

i expected better of Kirsty, some critical thinking at least

Have a look at the Newsnight Kirsty Wark interviewing Germaine Greer...

What a wasted opportunity. I'm on a different bloody planet. Bag of shite.

99.999% of trans women just want to peacefully get changed in a room in which they sincerely identify

You invented that statistic. Read local newspapers, or transcrimeuk.com for a string of offences committed by TW against women and children.
Also, no matter how peacefully they wish to use our spaces, their presence is still preventing many women’s peaceful use of rooms intended for our sole use.

For a documentary about womanhood I think they showed us all exactly what the issue was. Females being socialised to be kind. The end bit over tea was so ironic. Sitting there eroding the consent and boundaries of women after all the topics they had discussed. Pitiful.

Dr Jess, Joolz and Dr Nic all great of course.

I'm surprised they didn't have daft Lorraine Kelly and India " I am a woman let that penetrate!" Willoughby on, they would have put everyone's mind at rest....not.

Do you think they were edited or told what they couldnt say?

@aweegc

Aah how lovely..Sinita thinks we need to make trans women feel comfortable in changing rooms.

The problem is that women don't really know trans women. If we just met some then we'd be more understanding.

Hmm. Well I've met some and I haven't changed my mind. In fact it just confirmed that AGP is very real.

Ditto.

@EachandEveryone

Do you think they were edited or told what they couldnt say?

Massively edited. The celebs were filmed over days and it was condensed into a single program. The many people they spoke to.each only got a few minutes, or in some cases, seconds, on screen, but they would have spent significantly more time with them

This will have been heavily edited. You can tell just by watching it, the conversation doesn't flow like in real life, it's cut together.

I found the reaction of the woman with the short hair (a podcaster I think?) to meeting Nic very odd. I mean she was having a bit of a meltdown. She was going to meet a woman in swimming pool changing rooms who had a different opinion to her and she could barely cope. Yet at the same time, couldn't understand why other women wouldn't want to get naked next to strange men.

Her initial reaction was like that of mine when I'm facing a very real life trauma trigger (ie seeing my abuser).

I also found it incredibly patronising that the younger woman saw the older ones as mothers. As a mother, just fuck off. How about older women being friends, maybe with more wisdom (lived experience)? There's nothing wrong with being a mother per se, but it's a heavily loaded title in the context of patriarchy, one they didn't seem to appreciate. It also makes it easy to disregard what older women are saying, in away that doesn't happen so much if you call the person a friend.

Telegraph article on the show

www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/2021/11/26/womanhood-review-exactly-can-british-feminists-agree-days/