Anti trans for asking not to conflate sex with gender?

[OatALot]

On a menopause event at work and in the comments section they are being asked to use inclusive language such as 'people who menstrate'. These are being challenged and those who challenged are being called terf and accusssd of making others feel unsafe.

The people doing the presentation therefore have taken the stance anyone can go through the menopause.

I'd love to feedback that they should not conflate sex and gender. Surely if we just talk in term of sex and a biological function it can't be challenged? It takes the discussion away from a condition impacting females.

You know that's codswallop.

5O% of people going through menopause experience specific side effects *

So, as men and women undergo menopause that's half the population.

50% of women though - that allows a more precise understanding of the needs.

• made up % for illustrative purposes only

You know this. It is logic. It does not require sustained doublethink.

Again.

Twaddle!

Maybe DadJoke has symptoms of menopause at the moment. I do and I feel pretty awful. I also have flooding issues. Rubbish!

This is me today too. I tell you, when you cannot leave the house for flooding issues, I am not sure how I would cope in an office where everything is now gender neutral toilets.

@Sophoclesthefox I assume tbh that dad is bored at work on a Friday afternoon and thought they’d come here in the wind up

I mean no man would be so arrogant as to presume to lecture women about a biological experience they are literally unable to go through would they??

If you’re not on the wind up dad, I assume you also devote as much effort going on to mens forums where they discuss prostate cancer for example & lecturing them about being kind and explaining that women have prostates too

Many women don't experience menopause.

Dadjoke, did you realise that if a woman never gets to experience menopause in her life, it means she died before reaching that stage in the life of being a woman? Quite a nasty thing to say.

All women, hopefully, get to live to experience menopause. Even though it looks like hell, seeing the pre menopause stage I am in is crap already.

I am sure that DadJoke either is going through menopause or is likely to go through menopause. I don’t think that DadJoke would be so uneducated as to comment on the lives experience of all of us who are going through this at the moment - unless DadJoke was as well .

It is so true with the flooding issues and the gender neutral toilets Helle. It doesn’t work at all does it?

[quote Theeyeballsinthesky]@Sophoclesthefox I assume tbh that dad is bored at work on a Friday afternoon and thought they’d come here in the wind up

I mean no man would be so arrogant as to presume to lecture women about a biological experience they are literally unable to go through would they??

If you’re not on the wind up dad, I assume you also devote as much effort going on to mens forums where they discuss prostate cancer for example & lecturing them about being kind and explaining that women have prostates too[/quote]
Let’s hope so! Inclusion is so very important, it would be terrible if anyone was left out of being scolded.

Surely this just needs one or two sentences at the beginning of the talk and then the talk can carry on without using super opaque and frankly irrelevant language. Something like. ´Menopause is a biological process experienced by the female sex - so all women except transwomen and individuals with certain medical conditions that can prevent menarche in the first place, like Turner’s syndrome, and also transmen and any non binary persons of female sex. Then another sentence suggesting transmen may need specific advice. ´Transmen may go through artificially induced menopause much earlier than women would typically experience menopause naturally, due to cross sex hormone treatment. We recommend transmen seek advice from their medical team, as the processes and medical therapies described in this talk may not be a good fit for them.´ Then something like, ´because this talk is primarily aimed at women (or cisgender women if you fucking must.) and non binary people who are of female sex, we will use the words ´woman’ and ´female’ interchangeably during this talk’. So all genders have been acknowledged, everyone knows who is concerned and all the biological males can either go and spend their time listening to something else that’s actually relevant to them or they can shut up and listen to a female centric talk without trying to talk about themselves.

Are the few of those women who identify as trans men, or identify as non binary, upset or triggered by the word woman? It has nothing to do with the gender of the trans men or non- binary women.

It is a made up problem in their own minds if they find the word women repulsive or upsetting to them.

Quite and I have no patience for their nonsense.

I think it must be really hard to feel so incredibly triggered by the word “woman”. It is really likely to come up a lot in a lot of contexts, especially now when Stonewall has stated that it is ok to use .

Obviously it will be necessary to use the word woman in the normal workshop as it just would be too confusing for most people who aren’t up to date with the latest linguistic knots around this. As DadJoke might know from own experience, your brain can be a bit fuzzy in menopause and it really isn’t the time to start learning non essential linguistic reasoning which not is work related.

I wonder if there could be a special workshop for the people who couldn’t bear to hear the word woman? In that workshop “woman” could be replaced my “poppet”, “person” or maybe “being” as the latter would be truly inclusive?

I think it also could be a good point to have some drop-in sessions with mental support for people who find the word “woman” extremely triggering. I used to have a spider phobia. I found that CBT helped. Maybe it could help here as well?

I have read your posts and seen some of the early sensible replies, but not had time to read many.

I would respond discussing the impact to data and long-term research. Treatments to support women through the menopause (eg HRT) are designed for the female body with all that entails. The testing and research relies on accurate information. It doesnt matter how someone identifies at that point. The key part for treatment is that they were born female.

If someone takes medication and has a reaction and it is reported that they are male, or answers questions about the menopause & symptoms claiming to be a man it muddles the data. You can only have the menopause if you were born female. This is why the accurate reporting of sex (male/female) is critical.

I feel the same way about Prostate issues being reported by "women". That again cannot be. Only men have prostates.

Data collected now will drive research for generations in the future. I would hate for a medical issue to be de-prioritised or for a research line to be funded that was unnecessary because the "data" was showing that both men and women experience it.

But then again.... maybe DadJoke, it is also a good time for the presenters to do a segment at the end with the risk factors of those females who go through very early menopause... you know. Like those who take testosterone that leads to atrophy and requires hysterectomies.

Did you know DadJoke that the earlier that females have their ovaries removed the massive increase in early dementia. I mean, very early dementia and a very early risk. I heard it on BBC 4 last year and have not found much about it since because they are doing the studies now I believe.

So, it probably is a bit late for some, but if it makes one female think again about the significant effects of testosterone that is rarely talked about for females and not progress to using testosterone or to stop taking it. Well... that would be a good thing.

@Doubletoilandtrouble

Menopause is awful.

DadJoke, have you gone through menopause or are you likely to go through menopause?

That's a real swerve from the issue.

Menopause is something which deserves to be addressed and those people who experience it, men or women should be included, instead of having a meltdown because it's inclusive.

And I mean large dose of Testosterone used for making significant changes to the body characteristics.

What is inclusive about including males in these events? What is inclusive about changing the language to being gender neutral when additive will work.

Seriously, did you not hear Nancy Kelley from Stonewall discuss the new approach SW is taking with this language now? You are showing that you are out of date with your censorship.

instead of having a meltdown because it's inclusive.

Could you be any more misogynistic?

So.. we are again back to being hysterical if we disagree with a male?

But DadJoke, menopause is nothing to be ashamed of and I don’t think it is swerving the issue at all.

I think there are certain issues which you only should be allowed to have strong opinions on if you have a lived experience. Racism is an obvious case, but I would say that menopause is another issue where lived experience really matters.

And I know that some people can find it embarrassing to discuss, I did that in the beginning but I am over that now. You really don’t have to worry . The women here are actually really supportive.

I think the lived experience and the mutual support over the flooding issues, the brain fog etc really is essential when discussing how to tailor a workshop to suit the target audience.

instead of having a meltdown because it's inclusive.

And yet... we are supposed to then pander to someone having a meltdown because the word 'woman' was used....

@Helleofabore

What is inclusive about including males in these events? What is inclusive about changing the language to being gender neutral when additive will work.

Seriously, did you not hear Nancy Kelley from Stonewall discuss the new approach SW is taking with this language now? You are showing that you are out of date with your censorship.

It's an event for people who experience the menopause. Usually that would only include people who experience the menopause. Not sure where you are getting "males" from and how it relates to the

You could certainly say "most women and trans men" - I would have no objection to that, but "people" is easier.

@Helleofabore

instead of having a meltdown because it's inclusive.

And yet... we are supposed to then pander to someone having a meltdown because the word 'woman' was used....

"Please use inclusive language" is not having a meltdown.

I just want to point out that ‘Dadjoke’ is not an inclusive name.

Could you please change it to ‘personwhohasparentingrolljoke’

I’m feeling very excluded

“Woman” is not a gender. It’s a biological fact.

You can be a feminine man or a man who presents in a stereotypically feminine way, but that doesn’t make you a woman. And vice versa for women presenting in a stereotypically masculine way.

Stop conflating sex and gender, and stop considering “woman/man” as genders, because they aren’t.

Using 'people who' is the furthest from inclusive as you could get.

No, DadJoke we don't want or accept your idea of 'inclusion' and no, we are not interested in you lecturing us on something you know fuck all about.

Oh. See how clever he thinks he is being.

Men not males
Women not females

Like none of us have seen that hokum before.

As one wise person once said - this ain't our first rodeo.

Your illogical statements are of note purely for your hubris and persistence.

If you think you are annoying anyone forget it. We respond for the lurkers. Those women who are newly questioning the gender ideology.

Your continued daftness is illuminating and quite useful.

Cheers 😁

@Doubletoilandtrouble

But DadJoke, menopause is nothing to be ashamed of and I don’t think it is swerving the issue at all.

I think there are certain issues which you only should be allowed to have strong opinions on if you have a lived experience. Racism is an obvious case, but I would say that menopause is another issue where lived experience really matters.

And I know that some people can find it embarrassing to discuss, I did that in the beginning but I am over that now. You really don’t have to worry . The women here are actually really supportive.

I think the lived experience and the mutual support over the flooding issues, the brain fog etc really is essential when discussing how to tailor a workshop to suit the target audience.

This isn't an opinion on menopause, cancer, or any other medical conditions. It's an opinion on inclusive language. It's important when discussing siuch issues to use inclusive language and there is nothing whatsoever about the words "people who experience the menopause" which is hard to understand, or annoying, except for people whose attachment to the belief that trans men aren't men gives them brain fog.

How do you think the other people who aren't exercised about the issue cope with it easily?