Anti trans for asking not to conflate sex with gender?

[OatALot]

On a menopause event at work and in the comments section they are being asked to use inclusive language such as 'people who menstrate'. These are being challenged and those who challenged are being called terf and accusssd of making others feel unsafe.

The people doing the presentation therefore have taken the stance anyone can go through the menopause.

I'd love to feedback that they should not conflate sex and gender. Surely if we just talk in term of sex and a biological function it can't be challenged? It takes the discussion away from a condition impacting females.

"Some Women"
Which women? Tall ones, brown haired ones?
How do we know which ones?

Thank you for all your kind words, these words must include disabled women, how can they not????

@Petrarkanian

"Some Women" Which women? Tall ones, brown haired ones? How do we know which ones?

Thank you for all your kind words, these words must include disabled women, how can they not????

THIS

Your daughter is not acceptable collateral damage. If it's not accessible to her, then it's not acceptable phrasing.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

The discussion so far, Muriel, suggests to me that I have to accept being described by others as a "person who experiences menopause" or being addressed as "people who experience menopause".

This is as important as whether I am allowed to describe myself how I like.

Hello @PurgatoryOfPotholes

But what you're describing is a long way removed from someone saying that they're being told they can't call themselves a woman. There is a danger that legitimate grievances get discredited if manufactured ones get thrown into the mix. It sounds a bit like the more "enthusiastic" wing of Daily Express readers claiming that they're not allowed to call themselves English any more due to "political correctness gone mad", or whatever

And in this instance although I don't much like it either the description "people who menstruate" is
a) accurate (I'm guessing)
b) contains no words intrinsically offensive (partly because)
c) it's only being used in the context of a discussion about menstruation.

And within the context of that discussion you are quite at liberty to describe yourself as a woman! But some other females might not use that description for themselves.

What on Earth is in it for women to allow themselves to be described as “people who experience menopause” rather than women?

There is zero in it for us, absolutely nothing, zilch, nada

As always no one ever talks about “people who experience prostate cancer”, the word men is always used

Thanks for this. Off to look for that document. My NHS trust has written women out of its menopause policy (and maternity too... 🙄😠)

But what you're describing is a long way removed from someone saying that they're being told they can't call themselves a woman

Of course women can literally call themselves a woman when they are talking amongst themselves. But removing the word women from guidance / law / policy documents etc is extremely problematic for numerous reasons. Do you not agree with that?

@Beckert

But what you're describing is a long way removed from someone saying that they're being told they can't call themselves a woman

Of course women can literally call themselves a woman when they are talking amongst themselves. But removing the word women from guidance / law / policy documents etc is extremely problematic for numerous reasons. Do you not agree with that?

Yes, I agree, is there even now a definition in law of the word "woman"? I don't actually know.

And from a public information point of view, I think it's been pointed out earlier in the thread that a significant number of "people who menstruate" don't know what menstruation means, and call it something much more anglo saxon!

But what you're describing is a long way removed from someone saying that they're being told they can't call themselves a woman

Someone or women?

That's the problem. If men can call themselves women then the definition of women means anyone.

So when women say they want to be called women they are harassed, bullied and called TERF and ousted out of their jobs.

So women then are afraid to speak up and women as a distinct sex are completely wiped off the map.

There's a poster right on this thread encouraging women to accept calling themselves and being called 'people who....' as opposed to women.

The pressure to get the word 'woman' out of all documentation and for women to shut up and stop protesting this is bloody everywhere.

Yes it does happen. No, no one is exaggerating. Yes, it is really pissing some women off. The minimisation and telling women that it's not really affecting them is not helping anyone.

The argument seems to be “you can call yourself whatever you like, it’s other people who are organising events for you where they call you dehumanising names.

But actually the workshops we’re talking about are organised by women for women, and the workshop organisers are not allowed to say the events are for women.

Their projection of lack of agency onto women extends to the point where even in relationship to a workshop about menopause they picture us as passive consumers, not the driving force. That’s the root of the confusion in this thread. And as passive consumers, of course, we must shut up and accept what we’re given.

I think with menopause it is important to normalise it as well. The overwhelming majority (if not 100%) of women will eventually go through menopause. Still, it is something almost shameful, something that feels like it is open to discrimination and something that has a massive impact on our lives.

The more we can normalise this to something that is part of a woman’s lived experience, the better support we women can get. Re-labelling it “people who experience menopause” is really unhelpful in that context as well .

I blew a fuse over this as I have quite bad symptoms. And hearing that OP’s work erased the word “women” for menopause- as has several cancer charities I have seen made it worse. Muriel, you may not have seen this so much but have seen this a lot lately, it quite upsets me.

To further upset me, the dude came onto this thread, lecturing me about my own language and what I call myself.

And in another thread, a “woman” is charged with masturbating and waving her penis around. I can’t have the word woman to describe menopause or cancer, but the masturbator with they ejaculating penis is clearly a woman.

Not a good 24 hours.

If we normalise 'people that will go through the menopause', how will anyone know if they will go through the menopause or not?

The answer to that is, of course people will know because they are women. Which begs the question, why can't we can just say women?

Re-labelling it “people who experience menopause”

It's fucking insulting as well, as if menopause is on offer as an experience you can buy off the shelf like a Skydiving Day.

If the poster who so vehemently believes trans men are men then presumably they will be encouraging all those trans men of their acquaintance to pop off to the Doctors to have their prostate checked as per the recent campaign aimed at men regarding prostate cancer and if not, why not?

If the poster in question disagrees as vehemently with that campaign as they do with on here with us regarding language used around issues that only affect one of the two biological sexes I presume they have made their very strong feelings known to the organisers of that campaign and insisted that they from hereon use the inclusive (but wholly exclusive and dehumanising) language they are attempting to force on us. No doubt they will be thrilled and pat themselves on the back if and when the language around prostate cancer changes with the resultant drop in men being screened early causing the increase in men suffering said cancer.

Like you Doubletoilandtrouble I have no patience for those parroting this nonsense, I have even less when it comes out of the mouth of someone who has no skin in the game and never will have.

No man gets to dictate to me what words I want used to describe the processes of the biology I was born with, their opinion is less than worthless.

@Shedmistress

If we normalise 'people that will go through the menopause', how will anyone know if they will go through the menopause or not?

The answer to that is, of course people will know because they are women. Which begs the question, why can't we can just say women?

Succinctly put.

The biological reality remains. We just don’t have the words to accurately describe it.

Also, all the lols at “no one is saying people can’t call themselves women”, when the “people” who are getting the management buy in, setting up, recruiting for and running these workshops, probably to benefit themselves as well as others, are being told that the descriptive word that fits who they are and who their workshop is for is verboten. So, yeah, they are being told that calling themselves women isn’t enough, or isn’t correct, or doesn’t meet someone else’s standards.

@allmywhat

The argument seems to be “you can call yourself whatever you like, it’s other people who are organising events for you where they call you dehumanising names.

But actually the workshops we’re talking about are organised by women for women, and the workshop organisers are not allowed to say the events are for women.

I don't think this is a good example to focus on if you are painting the problem as male persons requiring female persons to accommodate their demands, because this is about female persons (transmen) being accommodated and not feeling excluded.

Something I've never been quite clear about - in the new transmen-are-men terminology, is it acceptable to say that transmen are female? I'm not a big fan of using "male" and "female" as nouns (Martin Goodman, I'm looking at you), but a compromise could be a workshop for "females going through menopause".

Or so as not to make grammar pedants feel unsafe "workshop on the female menopause".

(Not expecting a warm welcome here But could this be the way our language could accommodate the brave new world?)

Muriel

But what you're describing is a long way removed from someone saying that they're being told they can't callthemselvesa woman. There is a danger that legitimate grievances get discredited if manufactured ones get thrown into the mix. It sounds a bit like the more "enthusiastic" wing of Daily Express readers claiming that they're not allowed to call themselves English any more due to "political correctness gone mad", or whatever

I feel like we're on a different thread.

The OP was at a menopause workshop, where there was an argument over what to call women.

I'm going to be very blunt here: when I do not like how other people are addressing me, it is very much a legitimate grievance. If I might bring up the disability comparison again, I neither accept people using offensive terms about my disability to me or my children, and I pull people up quick smart when I hear them using such terms to anyone else disabled.

The debate over whether to use the word Christmas or to use a catch-all term for all the religious festivals that occur at the same time of year is absolutely not comparable to being rude to me or other women. And I really do find being referred to by biological functions rude.

And in this instance although I don't much like it either the description "people who menstruate" is
a) accurate (I'm guessing)
b) contains no words intrinsically offensive (partly because)
c) it's only being used in the context of a discussion about menstruation.

Reducing people to their biological functions is not a culturally neutral act, especially when done to women. Women have been described and treated for centuries as vessels, bleeders and so on. It is contemptuous.

And within the context of that discussion you are quite at liberty to describe yourself as a woman! But some other females might not use that description for themselves.

What they call themselves is immaterial. That is up to them. The issue at hand is what they call me to my face.

In a world where we are expected to abide by the 3rd-person pronoun preferences of people who are not there, I cannot understand why women are expected to tolerate offensive forms of address towards us.

I’m all ears to find out what the non female menopause is…..

The thing is as Helen Joyce said, there can’t be a compromise on any of this. We have to win

We were nice & kind & accommodating at first and look where it’s got us? Biological men in Women’s outdone, sports and refuges, a biological man running a rape crisis service and saying that women who have been raped will need to learn to cope with TW in their services, programmes designed to correct the under representation of women in politics and STEM being open to men who identify as women and the leader of the fucking opposition saying live on TV that it’s wrong to say only women have cervixes

So no, no more, no compromising, not now, not ever. Only adult human females are women, the word women have a taken

No thank you

But Muriel, many transmen don’t want to be “people who go through menopause”. Transmen don’t want to be reduced to their body parts either.

I think this is about males trying to show women and transmen what they think is the best solution- and ignoring both women and transmen in the process.

Do you think transwomen want to be addressed as “penis people with erectile dysfunction”?

Do you think transmen want to be specifically included in menopause materials? As in transmen who will go through menopause? I don’t particularly think transwomen want viagra adverts everywhere with “pink pill for erectile dysfunction in women with lady penises” but I could of course be wrong.

I think we should stick with women for women and do a few surveys about how transmen would like to be included in the targeting of menopause workshops.

And males trying to get their 10 cents in can get lost.

Hello @PurgatoryOfPotholes

All legitimate interesting points.

Sorry, I need to disengage for a while. But two thoughts.

Firstly, at he heart of all this of course is whether you accept that transmen are men. And really if you reject that (and we all know the arguments, and I can absolutely see why you might) then everything else falls away: the session is for women, and transmen need to accept that (would be the argument).

Secondly, maybe we are on different threads! I have not seen any mandate that women just accept being addressed in a way which they find objectionable. Any individual woman (who wants to be) must be addressed as a woman. This is not about how to address any individual. This is about how to label the session. If you go to a workshop for people who have diabetes you won't be addressed as "person with diabetes".

Do you think transwomen want to be addressed as “penis people with erectile dysfunction”?

Do you think transmen want to be specifically included in menopause materials? As in transmen who will go through menopause?

I doubt it! Has someone somewhere done a survey? It would be interesting to know. In many ways (assuming none of us is trans) we are making the mistake referred to earlier of projecting our assumptions onto a group we are not part of.

Sorry, this is very interesting, but I must go!

Something I've never been quite clear about - in the new transmen-are-men terminology, is it acceptable to say that transmen are female?

Do you mean, is it acceptable to say a biological truth. Transmen may identify as male. That's their identity. But their biology is female. That's a fact. And menopause isn't about identity. It's about biological fact

I don't think this is a good example to focus on if you are painting the problem as male persons requiring female persons to accommodate their demands, because this is about female persons (transmen) being accommodated and not feeling excluded.

Yet transmen deliberately leave womanhood behind. Or at least try to. I don't think it's reasonable to turn your back on womanhood and exclude yourself from it, whilst at the same time expect the language that women use to then be changed to include transmen.

I doubt it! Has someone somewhere done a survey? It would be interesting to know. In many ways (assuming none of us is trans) we are making the mistake referred to earlier of projecting our assumptions onto a group we are not part of.

Tranen are likely to go through early onset menopause by about 30 years, and suffer from osteoporosis, vaginal atrophy and other quite serious complaints, and if you wait til they get to middle age before inviting them to an inclusive workshop, you will be far too late.

They are two distinctly different issues. And two distinctly different workshops.