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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A trans-Identified BDSM fan/gun nut is now a senior leader at Girlguiding

611 replies

Scraggythang · 23/11/2021 10:59

Via Glinner’s sub stack. Sorry if this has already been posted!

grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/wtf-are-girlguiding-thinking

OP posts:
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Akela64 · 15/12/2021 21:25

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Birdhome · 15/12/2021 22:27

What utter rubbish, barleybadminton !

There is nothing ‘safe’ about sadistic behaviours, so many women have been killed by assholes claiming rough sex that it should be clear by now.

The thread below, from feminism chat, is precisely about the damage that BDSM porn can cause girls (and of course boys). I wouldn’t want people like that kinky mistress 🤮anywhere near any kids. That you consider this ‘vanilla’ is nothing more than gaslighting.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4426917-Billie-Eilish-speaks-out-on-the-effect-of-viewing-porn-at-11-years-old

Agrona · 15/12/2021 23:22

@barleybadminton

And she's not "posing with gun in lingerie", there is a picture of her holding a gun, you can literally get a shooting badge in the girl guides, lots of people have that hobby, its a sport. The desperation to find something to attack and destroy someone just trying to get on with their lives is truly depressing. It's nasty, it's bullying, and it's the meat and drink of the worst of the patriarchal tabloid press who will have no qualms about using this moral panic to attack and slut shame other women just like they used to.
But it is okay to post death threats to women for speaking about biology?
Chickenyhead · 15/12/2021 23:44

Wow.

You really do hate safeguarding measures don't you?

Luckily, they are currently necessary both legally and morally by most normal people.

The GG has a duty to carty out adequate due diligence, which it has failed to in at least this instance, likely far more.

We have different value systems and share no overlapping common ground. Discussing safeguarding with you would be a waste of my time.

I speak as a mother, not as whatever drivel you seek to invent.

Anyone in charge of Child safeguarding is held to a higher standard, if you cannot see what is wrong here, which you clearly cannot, you are part of the problem.

It's disgusting.

KimikosNightmare · 15/12/2021 23:54

@barleybadminton

And she's not "posing with gun in lingerie", there is a picture of her holding a gun, you can literally get a shooting badge in the girl guides, lots of people have that hobby, its a sport. The desperation to find something to attack and destroy someone just trying to get on with their lives is truly depressing. It's nasty, it's bullying, and it's the meat and drink of the worst of the patriarchal tabloid press who will have no qualms about using this moral panic to attack and slut shame other women just like they used to.
Oh what nonsense.

This person being trans is irrelevant.

KimikosNightmare · 15/12/2021 23:56

there is a picture of her holding a gun, you can literally get a shooting badge in the girl guides, lots of people have that hobby, its a sport

Holding a gun which if it were real isn't legal in the UK.

There is a world of difference between people who are members of responsible sporting gun clubs or game sports people and that photograph.

barleybadminton · 16/12/2021 11:11

@Chickenyhead

Wow.

You really do hate safeguarding measures don't you?

Luckily, they are currently necessary both legally and morally by most normal people.

The GG has a duty to carty out adequate due diligence, which it has failed to in at least this instance, likely far more.

We have different value systems and share no overlapping common ground. Discussing safeguarding with you would be a waste of my time.

I speak as a mother, not as whatever drivel you seek to invent.

Anyone in charge of Child safeguarding is held to a higher standard, if you cannot see what is wrong here, which you clearly cannot, you are part of the problem.

It's disgusting.

I fully support safeguarding measures such as DBS checks and there doesn't seem to be any evidence of Girl Guides being negligent on that front in this case.

An adult posting a pic of them wearing what is actually a fairly vanilla costume that wouldn't be ot of place in most nightclubs and making a comment that wouldn't be out of place in a carry on film or countless family entertainment shows is not a safeguarding matter and it's ridiculous to suggest otherwise. If your prudishness is so extreme it makes the 1950s look permissive then perhaps it's time to think again. If this were pictures of people having sex, or engaging in BDSM, or showed nudity, or were more explicit then it would be different, but it's not, it's a pic of someone in a leather dress making a a joke about being a Mistress. It's the kind of thing you might see in a family comedy film. I doubt it would even merit a PG certificate.

Also it's noteworthy this pic wasn't posted under her own name, so it's unlikely any girl guides searching social media for details of her would have seen it. Until now of course.

Helleofabore · 16/12/2021 11:29

It's not an explicit pic, it's not NSFW, its not something that would be out of place in a panto or carry on film. It's ridiculous to claim its a safeguarding risk based on a pretty vanilla fully clothed photo that could easily be a fancy dress outfit, I'm sure if you trawled through the social media of other women who work with children you would find no end of similar pics

It seems a little weird to make this claim when we are discussing children.

I would actually push back on your claim that other women who work with children would post similar pics. With references of a sexual nature, outfits and with inappropriate poses with guns (ie. not showing guns in a safe environment, or in an educational way, but in a fashion that encourages poor usage habits from young people and children seeking to copy).

You are so focused on this person being trans. This is not a person that I would be happy to have as a GG leader, female or male.

And seriously, the 'everyone is doing it so it is ok' argument if being applied, should be tightened up considerably. We know that social media is harmful to our children in seeing a constant stream of age inappropriate content. So, if that argument is being applied, time to revise it. It is NOT working.

Helleofabore · 16/12/2021 11:53

If your prudishness is so extreme it makes the 1950s look permissive then perhaps it's time to think again.

You are very much into minimising this aren't you barley. You are now resorting to disparaging remarks about people's boundaries.

Also it's noteworthy this pic wasn't posted under her own name,

Yes, under a name referring to a sex act.

I don't think you are presenting yourself as a balanced and unbiased poster in the way you obviously believe you are. But I encourage you to continue because each time you post the readers understand more about how this has been allowed to happen.

mammajustkilledagnat · 16/12/2021 12:00

It's all about nibbling away at the boundaries. If I can get away with this, what else can I have a little push at, which then paves the way for the next chanced to have a little nibble and a push and before you know it you have mix sex toilets and adults sharing accommodation with unrelated minors of the opposite sex and no one can say anything without looking bad. It's a pervert's wet dream.

Helleofabore · 16/12/2021 12:54

It's all about nibbling away at the boundaries.

It is indeed. Queer Theory seeks to destabilise society to reform boundaries to suit different agendas. Sadly those agendas are not necessarily (a few might have been early on) the best for women and children. You only have to look at what motivated Foucault to understand it. Maybe barley should explain how Foucault's theories of destabilising boundaries is good for Girl Guides.

It is probably a timely reminder of just who might have been (ie. never confirmed from GG side I believe) on the advisory group to GG to shape this policy too.

barleybadminton · 16/12/2021 13:00

@Helleofabore

It's not an explicit pic, it's not NSFW, its not something that would be out of place in a panto or carry on film. It's ridiculous to claim its a safeguarding risk based on a pretty vanilla fully clothed photo that could easily be a fancy dress outfit, I'm sure if you trawled through the social media of other women who work with children you would find no end of similar pics

It seems a little weird to make this claim when we are discussing children.

I would actually push back on your claim that other women who work with children would post similar pics. With references of a sexual nature, outfits and with inappropriate poses with guns (ie. not showing guns in a safe environment, or in an educational way, but in a fashion that encourages poor usage habits from young people and children seeking to copy).

You are so focused on this person being trans. This is not a person that I would be happy to have as a GG leader, female or male.

And seriously, the 'everyone is doing it so it is ok' argument if being applied, should be tightened up considerably. We know that social media is harmful to our children in seeing a constant stream of age inappropriate content. So, if that argument is being applied, time to revise it. It is NOT working.

Compared to the highly sexualised clothing a lot of pop stars, models and celebrities wear this pic is nothing, are we saying none of those women should ever be permitted to work with children? No kinky women who may have posted a pic of their outfit on the way to a club, or been inadvertently photographed inside? No punks or goths who may have worn bondage or fetishy type clothing and been photographed in it at some point?. Why, why does it make them a safeguarding risk? Is it the existence of a picture that makes them dangerous? Or is it the fact they are expressing a sexualty outside of heterosexual and traditional norms? Are we really saying no-one slightly kinky can ever be allowed to work with kids? There'd be hardly anyone left

And there's a difference between not age appropriate and not intended for children. No kid is going to look at that pic and be corrupted or harmed. They see far worse in music videos, on television and in computer games all the time. Ever heard of Catwoman? Or Sedusa, a character in the Powerpuff Girls? Or watched a video by Rhianna or Madonna even? This isn't about online porn,or safeguarding, it's social conservatism as extreme as anything feminists fought against in the 60s and 70s.

barleybadminton · 16/12/2021 13:05

In fact in terms of safeguarding I'd have far more concerns over someone who thinks its acceptable to share this pic without consent all over the internet despite the fact it was very clearly not posted under her own name than I would over someone who could just be going to a fancy dress party with a slightly cheeky comment attached.

If there's anyone who doesn't understand women's bounderies in this matter it's Glinner and the Daily Mail.

JustcameoutGC · 16/12/2021 13:05

I want people who work with my children to understand safeguarding and boundaries. This person does not. End of.

Helleofabore · 16/12/2021 13:22

Compared to the highly sexualised clothing a lot of pop stars, models and celebrities wear this pic is nothing, are we saying none of those women should ever be permitted to work with children? No kinky women who may have posted a pic of their outfit on the way to a club, or been inadvertently photographed inside? No punks or goths who may have worn bondage or fetishy type clothing and been photographed in it at some point?.

There is a difference between being 'photographed in it' and posting it on social media. I am sure that you, as an adult, don't need the difference explained.

Why, why does it make them a safeguarding risk? Is it the existence of a picture that makes them dangerous?

It is the series of photographs that indicate that this individual has a lack of boundaries and knowledge of what is appropriate for GG leadership. The leaders are expected not to post images of themselves of a 'sexual nature'. It is in the rules. And there is the poses with guns that would be considered not representing good weapon use.

Or is it the fact they are expressing a sexualty outside of heterosexual and traditional norms?

You are reaching here. Where are YOUR boundaries on how far you are allowing 'sexualities' to be working with children? I can mention a few that will get deleted.

You are also missing the entire point of if a 'sexuality' is being made a rather large focus of someone's social media, it raises red flag. Regardless of whether it is heterosexual or homosexual or bisexual.

You are making this about something it is not for the purpose of processing your own activist agenda. Not one person has mentioned anything about this person being a homosexual male. Not one. But you are falling into whatever false argument to try to convince people.

Are we really saying no-one slightly kinky can ever be allowed to work with kids? There'd be hardly anyone left

Again, you are the one here progressing that the majority of people must have some sort of 'kink' or fetish in their lives. And frankly, if that 'kink' or fetish was one that could put children in harms way via lowered boundaries, then yes, I agree that they should never be allowed to work with kids. Lowered boundaries is in no way beneficial to protecting children from abuse if you cannot recognise the abuse.

And there's a difference between not age appropriate and not intended for children. No kid is going to look at that pic and be corrupted or harmed.

That we will disagree on. You are set on trying to lower children's and women's boundaries.

They see far worse in music videos, on television and in computer games all the time.

That is up to the parents. Parenting a child means limiting access to what they see, even in music clips.

Ever heard of Catwoman?

You are really reaching here. Catwoman... what sexual activity in an age appropriate movie are you referring to?

Or Sedusa, a character in the Powerpuff Girls? Or watched a video by Rhianna or Madonna even?

Again, parenting does mean that you can limit what a child watches. Children do survive not watching music videos you know. It does happen and there are parents who choose to not expose their girls to videos of sexual objectification.

This isn't about online porn,or safeguarding, it's social conservatism as extreme as anything feminists fought against in the 60s and 70s.

And there is that 'you are not the cool girls' argument again. I think you will find that many feminists will have the opinion that you are talking nonsense.

Just own it, you are trying to convince parents that lowering sexual boundaries is good for children.

MrsSteveMcDonald · 16/12/2021 13:33

@barleybadminton

And she's not "posing with gun in lingerie", there is a picture of her holding a gun, you can literally get a shooting badge in the girl guides, lots of people have that hobby, its a sport. The desperation to find something to attack and destroy someone just trying to get on with their lives is truly depressing. It's nasty, it's bullying, and it's the meat and drink of the worst of the patriarchal tabloid press who will have no qualms about using this moral panic to attack and slut shame other women just like they used to.
As a qualified rifle instructor that has taken my Guides shooting a number of times, I am wondering where you have found a shooting badge. Are you talking about one from years ago that doesn't exist any more or a non official one?

I grew up around guns as many people who live rurally do and even though I know it's fun shooting, I would not trust this Div Com around my girls as he clearly doesn't have it up top to understand what is and isn't appropriate.

Helleofabore · 16/12/2021 13:45

I too grew up around guns, and my family and some friends still shoot. My teen went shooting with GG's and loved it. My husband is an excellent shot. My dad was less so, he is renowned for shooting a snake that was sitting on his typewriter and having to send it away to get parts replaced. And yes, it was venomous and yes, he used to pick up the pythons to remove them so he could tell the difference very well.

The poses with weapons is in no way appropriate for anyone on social media. But certainly not someone who is supposed to be an aspirational leader for young people of any sex.

I also grew up with many accidental and fatal shootings involving children shooting children.

But, crack on barley making out that everyone who disgrees is some prudish person stuck in the dim past.

It was tiresome when people first started doing it on this thread and it has not got anymore convincing. But, as I say, a whole lot of readers reading along can see the attempts to minimise behaviour that is inappropriate for a GG leader.

TheBlackDarner · 16/12/2021 13:57

But, as I say, a whole lot of readers reading along can see the attempts to minimise behaviour that is inappropriate for a GG leader

We can indeed.

We can also spot the decades old Peter Tatchell arguments when they plop on these threads.

Helleofabore · 16/12/2021 14:06

My dad was less so, he is renowned for shooting a snake that was sitting on his typewriter and having to send it away to get parts replaced.

To be clear, he sent the typewriter away NOT the snake. I daresay that the typewriter engineers would not have liked that snake arriving. And I believe they would have had a huge belly laugh at the two holes in the typewriter mechanisms. Farming life, eh?

BettyFilous · 16/12/2021 14:22

To paraphrase the late, magnificent Magdalen Berns:

I’d rather be (thought) a prude than a paedophile enabler.*

  • MNHQ: I am making a general point here that anyone with an interest in safeguarding has a duty to speak up to avoid risk of harm, not about the specific GG case.
Datun · 16/12/2021 14:25

And to be clear, I personally wouldn't want anyone, male or female, gun toting or not, who was into BDSM in a position of authority over my children, given it relies on the fetishisation of power differentials for sexual arousal.

And, to save badminton the bother, telling me that there are already a million people into BDSM in a position of authority over my children, is not an argument that I would find convincing.

Lovelyricepudding · 16/12/2021 14:33

@Helleofabore

My dad was less so, he is renowned for shooting a snake that was sitting on his typewriter and having to send it away to get parts replaced.

To be clear, he sent the typewriter away NOT the snake. I daresay that the typewriter engineers would not have liked that snake arriving. And I believe they would have had a huge belly laugh at the two holes in the typewriter mechanisms. Farming life, eh?

I was wondering...
Helleofabore · 16/12/2021 14:40

And yes, it was venomous

And to be clear, by venomous, I mean one of the most venomous in the world. I was certainly not wrapped in a cotton wool cocoon growing up. Neither is my teen.

But I still believe anyone who publishes posts about their sexual activities on their social media feed and their mishandling of guns is not suitable for being a GG leader. FFS. People in positions with children need to understand what is and is not appropriate for children.

Again, barley, please do tell us how this Queer Theory style destabilisation has worked out in the past for children (ie. Those in France that only now feel brave enough to talk about their being exploited by those people deemed intellectuals in the 70s) . I am quite sure the boys paid by Foucault can tell us how a major proponent of that theory helped them. No?

And maybe come back and tell us again how prudish we are. I am sure people calling attention to flawed policy in the past were called it too. How very progressive of you Barley?

Not to mention how offensive it is to link kink and fetishes to LGB relationships.

barleybadminton · 16/12/2021 15:09

@Datun

And to be clear, I personally wouldn't want anyone, male or female, gun toting or not, who was into BDSM in a position of authority over my children, given it relies on the fetishisation of power differentials for sexual arousal.

And, to save badminton the bother, telling me that there are already a million people into BDSM in a position of authority over my children, is not an argument that I would find convincing.

You really think people should be prevented from workig with children due to private consensual sexual activity with other adults? Wow. You're talking about a substantial section of the population, almost half of them basedon the published evidence.

"Overall, nearly half (45.6%) of the sample subjects were interested in at least one type of sexual behaviour that is considered anomalous, whereas one third (33%) had experienced the behaviour at least once," Professor Christian Joyal, one of the study's authors, explained.

"These facts suggest that we need to know what normal sexual practices are before we label a legal sexual interest as anomalous.

"Some paraphilic interests are more common than people might think, not only in terms of fantasies but also in terms of desire and behavior."

"Of the sample, 35 per cent said they were interested in voyeurism, 26 per cent in fetishism, another 26 per cent in frotteurism and 19 per cent in masochism.

They also found levels of fetishism and masochism were not significantly different between men and women."

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/love-sex/weird-sexual-fetishes-are-actually-very-normal-study-suggests-a6922726.html

Masdintle · 16/12/2021 15:14

You're clearly ignoring the fact, patiently repeated over and over again, that posting such behaviour on unlocked social media when one is in a position of power and responsibility for young children is the unacceptable behaviour and the one that shows a lack of awareness of safeguarding. It's what people do in public that is being discussed here.