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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Not sure of my purpose in posting - just my head is spinning!

104 replies

LilithRises · 21/11/2021 20:00

I'm feeling really upset, angry and horrified. I've only recently been following the cases of Angela Bailey, Kathleen Stock, Keira Bell etc (i've came to the debate late). I feel like scales have slipped from my eyes and the antics of SW have shocked me profoundly. I've been reading about the harm and risks involved in medical transitioning and how there seems to be a psychic contagion (amongst vulnerable girls with various complex issues) to transition and that terrible harm is being done. I've learnt that Stonewall have redefined the concept of homosexuality to same gender rather than same sex attraction. I feel like i've fallen down a mad rabbit-hole. I cant get my head around it.

OP posts:
KittenKong · 22/11/2021 07:55

Well... now a trans woman has been given a senior position in the girl guides.

KittenKong · 22/11/2021 08:02

Oh and Victim Support is a stonewall champion. That’s why they have been tweeting over the weekend to say that if your partner won’t use your ‘preferred pronoun’ you are the victim.

Blessex · 22/11/2021 08:05

Oh OP I started similar thread a month or so ago. It’s terrifying when you realise. I also knew it was bumbling in the background but only when I poked did I realise the true horror of it all. Get involved. That’s all I can say. Call people out (I have someone on Instagram who keeps posting be kind posts - and I gently remind them how much girls are hurting because of this). Buy books - I have just bought six copies of Trans by Helen Joyce and am having them out to friends I think may read it. Talk about women’s sport (have you seen the recent IOC ruling?). Keep reading

WomenTalkingAboutARevolution · 22/11/2021 09:23

@KittenKong

Well... now a trans woman has been given a senior position in the girl guides.
Disappointing but inevitable. Where have you seen this?
KittenKong · 22/11/2021 09:52

Twitter - the person with the new position has posted the news.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 22/11/2021 09:58

Oh fgs the girl guides are a disgrace!!

Can you link the twitter kitten?

FindTheTruth · 22/11/2021 10:18

@nauticant

One possible approach OP, rather than piling in and trying to chase after too many strands at the same time, would be to buy the book Trans by Helen Joyce, read that to build an overall framework of what's going on, and then you can follow up without getting too overloaded trying to read everything at once.
Seconded. The book is clear.

Threads that can help

Q&A thread for New Posters
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4165041-Q-A-thread-for-New-Posters

Break it down for me?
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

Quick summary of the ideology by Helen Joyce

trumpisagit · 22/11/2021 10:41

I am very worried about our teenagers.
Mine specifically seem OK but that ideology seeps in.
When I tried to talk to my preteen about whether one can actually change sex he shut down the conversation with "you can't say that it will upset the transes"
My 14 old says he really doesn't care what other people do, but previously told me he thought one could have an op to "change sex".

It is the no debate, no discussion that worries me the most.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 22/11/2021 10:53

Oh OP.

I was where you are now in 2015. Couldn’t believe it. So shocked I didn’t quite know what to do with myself, with this new knowledge. I didn’t know how to make sense of the world in this new light. Truly grim - I really feel for you!

The bad news is I sometimes still feel like this. Six years on and I still haven’t got my head around it because it’s so outrageous: the lies, the injustice, the irrationality of it all and the stupidity of all these people in positions of power and influence who have waved it all through, sometimes through a sheer lack of critical thinking, sometimes because they’re paid up believers in this (as I see it) frankly terrifying ideology.

I was watching Kathleen Stock on Triggernometry last night and at one point she just said “it’s just fucking nuts” (or words to that effect) - and i couldn’t have agreed more. It really is. Absolutely fucking nutso.

The good news is there has been an incredible amount of amazing work done in those years. As Empressaurus says, it’s primarily women who have done this, setting up grassroots orgs, organising, meeting, contacting our MPs, campaigning, TALKING. Women talking about this is what stopped self ID being made law in the UK.

And women crowdfunding. There have been so many significant legal cases and we’re continuing to challenge as much as we can through the courts. Maya’s case was a landmark. Women successfully challenged the census guidelines on answering the sex question on the basis of self ID. We are having an impact.

One of the upsides to all this is that a new form of feminism is emerging, and there will be many more benefits to that ultimately than just dealing with this current attack on our rights and safety. Women are waking up and realising just how deep and far misogyny goes, how little worth, status and power we as women still have relative to men, how thoroughly patriarchal the western world still is, not just those parts of the world where it’s more obvious.

And while it’s immensely painful to be in this position, the first step to being able to address issues is to recognise them, so we have to start here. I felt as if the world I knew had been swept away but the truth is, the world had always been like this, I just hadn’t recognised it. It’s the illusion that fell away - as others have said, the scales falling from our eyes.

And the more women like me, back then, and you, now, and everyone in between and before and still to come - the more of us wake up and find the scales falling from our eyes, the stronger we get; the more of us there are, the more of an impact we have; the more of us get involved, the further our reach and the less isolated those incredibly brave women who have put themselves in the firing line are. The easier it will become, ultimately, for other women to stand up and be counted.

Things are moving all the time. The BBC putting out the Nolan Stonewall podcasts and the cotton ceiling article would have been unthinkable even a couple of years ago. The difference between the judge’s ruling at Maya’s first case and her second one was immense. A lot of ground has already been covered and there are ways to take part and contribute that just didn’t exist at all a few years ago, so in some ways it’s a good time to come on board, the shock and trauma of the realisation notwithstanding!

It’s not going to be a quick or easy process though. This ideology is too far embedded in society and it is too well supported by the pre-existing mechanisms of male dominance and primacy. The situation in the USA (and Canada) is even worse and will continue to exert an influence on the situation here.

But we are not taking this lying down. We are resisting. We are fighting back. And every single woman who wakes up to what’s going on and comes over to the side of the resistance makes a difference. Every single one of us counts. All our efforts, however small or large, count. So a very warm welcome to you and to everyone else who’s only just realised what’s happening and is joining in.

Being part of this movement (and I use the term in a very loose way, as it’s so truly grassroots and essentially unstructured) really is something to be very proud of. It is something we will look back on, hopefully from a future where sanity has prevailed, and know that we did what had to be done. And of course there’s the huge benefit of meeting so many amazing women, either virtually or IRL, along the way!

DialSquare · 22/11/2021 11:00

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark your posts always make me want to stand up and cheer. And being the lazy caahhh I am, not many things make me want stand up!

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 22/11/2021 11:10

Grin Grin

KittenKong · 22/11/2021 11:23

Theeyeballsinthesky - looked I can’t find it - although someone posed a comment on it on the girlguiding twitter account under some tweet about girls/women dating they have to work harder than men on equal payday.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 22/11/2021 11:45

Found it! twitter.com/sian_j67/status/1462647151884910593?s=21

KittenKong · 22/11/2021 11:50

Ah good spot! The one I saw had a photo too, which looked genuine.

LilithRises · 22/11/2021 12:11

It's honestly nuts, that's all I can manage to articulate at the moment. what really upsets and horrifies me is the medicalisation and cutting up and messing with healthy bodies - how on earth is a child capable of informed consent for these surgeries and amputations? and to realise what infertility actually means - further down the line - when circumstances change - and a child may be longed for. I'm just astounded. Not to mention biological men competing in women's sports - of course there will be an advantage - it's really not rocket science. Mediocre men competing in women's catergories in order to win. Oh the glory of that ! I feel furious about it all and the only way forward is now to be active. Better late than never. I've just purchased the Trans book previously mentioned, have contributed to some crowdfunding, written to the BBC to say I support the recent coverage and have sent emails to my MP asking them to urge the government to press pause on this conversion therapy consultation.

Thank you all for your replies and wonderful responses.

OP posts:
TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 22/11/2021 12:16

Yes, it defies reason, common sense, logic, social justice. Everything.

But that’s great work to start, Lilith! 💪💪💪

Helleofabore · 22/11/2021 12:22

[quote Theeyeballsinthesky]Found it! twitter.com/sian_j67/status/1462647151884910593?s=21[/quote]
Oh... yes.. the GG divisional leader who has tweeted previously offering to show people more of their new breasts....

Do GG ever do any research on the people they bring into the organisation? Ever? Like Fae the extreme porn advocate wasn't hiding their involvement in extreme porn advocacy. Including lowering the age limit for porn actors to 16!

I do despair about the GGs.

Helleofabore · 22/11/2021 12:23

Sorry for the rant, Lilith.

GromblesofGrimbledon · 22/11/2021 12:31

Welcome to the club @LilithRises

I hope you stick around Smile

I recommend Graham Linehan's Substack and his podcast on YouTube "The Mess We're In". Good for staying in the loop if you're busy. This stuff moves fast!

FindTheTruth · 22/11/2021 12:32

I felt as if the world I knew had been swept away but the truth is, the world had always been like this, I just hadn’t recognised it. It’s the illusion that fell away - as others have said, the scales falling from our eyes.

so good @TalkingtoLangClegintheDark and thank you for reminding us of all the good things to come out of this mess

LemonSwan · 22/11/2021 12:35

Hi OP,

Welcome!

My post is a bit of mental health warning post - I previously did have a very serious mental health breakdown due to going down this rabbit hole a number of years back. It wasnt just the topic itself but certainly the central theme; its quite a tale which I wont bother sharing today.

But what I am trying to say - is this can send you mad. Its like waking up one day and realising you live in a society in the midst of a mass psychosis and this can send you mad also.

Do take time to step away if its all getting too much. I know its hard to look away and knowledge is power. But you missing a week, or a month, or even a year of this drama will be unlikely to change the outcome.

I do believe this will all get sorted eventually. Its unsustainable for society to live in a land of double speak / cognitive dissonance; deny the existence of the female sex and the subsequent protections we require and deserve.

So just please do look after yourself. Truth always prevails in the end Flowers

EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn · 22/11/2021 12:43

Do take time to step away if its all getting too much. I know its hard to look away and knowledge is power. But you missing a week, or a month, or even a year of this drama will be unlikely to change the outcome.

Absolutely this. There are enough of us now that there’s always space for someone to step back for a while.

We’re also now finally getting to the stage where meetings are getting held in person. If you hear of one in your area I hugely recommend going if you can.

LemonSwan · 22/11/2021 12:54

EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn

To the power of the exponential tag team Wine

CriticalCondition · 22/11/2021 12:56

Bloody hell. I've been aware of this for years now but I'm still shocked almost daily by what's happening.

I looked at that new Guide leader's twitter. How can GG think that a person who tweets about their bra size, posts a close-up photo of themselves with straining shirt buttons saying they need some bigger tops and, as a PP said, posts a picture of their cleavage with 'boobs - do you want to see more?' be considered a good role model for girls?

How, just how?

RedCarpetRebellion · 22/11/2021 13:14

@LilithRises

It's honestly nuts, that's all I can manage to articulate at the moment. what really upsets and horrifies me is the medicalisation and cutting up and messing with healthy bodies - how on earth is a child capable of informed consent for these surgeries and amputations? and to realise what infertility actually means - further down the line - when circumstances change - and a child may be longed for. I'm just astounded. Not to mention biological men competing in women's sports - of course there will be an advantage - it's really not rocket science. Mediocre men competing in women's catergories in order to win. Oh the glory of that ! I feel furious about it all and the only way forward is now to be active. Better late than never. I've just purchased the Trans book previously mentioned, have contributed to some crowdfunding, written to the BBC to say I support the recent coverage and have sent emails to my MP asking them to urge the government to press pause on this conversion therapy consultation.

Thank you all for your replies and wonderful responses.

I think it’s worse than that @LilithRises, but if puberty blockers block brain and body development then would the person even long for a child if artificially kept a child themselves?

I longed for children of my own when only a child-or longed for them when I was older- but I expect that’s because I had such an abusive childhood as so many of my friends say this wasn’t their experience. They say they never felt the longing for children, to be a mother, until much much older. I think it’s likely that is in some way be linked to normal brain and body development that we go through during puberty, rather than just a solely socially conditioned want.

Many gnc being kept physically and psychologically a child for life may result in never longing for a child, outside of some sense of loneliness they can’t name. It also means they are permanently attractive to a certain group, who have been quick to raise their heads again and reassert their ‘sexuality’. Along with breaking down boundaries and removing safeguards that is inherent to gender ideology, and the queer theory that predates it, this also sterilises gnc kids who refuse to fit into to stereotypical boxes while providing life long children for the ‘MAP’ crowd to access. If children can consent to sterilisation then of course they can consent to ‘relationships’ with adults within this group, and we must not judge or shame anyone’s ‘sexuality’ you know.

Add to the reality that, as LC said, any sacred caste that can not be questioned attracts those-men mostly- who have nefarious intentions and it becomes crystal clear the most terrifying risk contained in this social contagion.

And somehow we are living in a madness where those trained in safeguarding are propelling this social contagion, rather than safeguarding children against it.