Rosie Duffield debates with Ellie Mae O'Hagan

[zanahoria]

"I want the viewers at home to really think about why it might be upsetting for a transgender woman" to have an MP "call them 'male-bodied people'" says Ellie Mae O'Hagan of the CLASS think tank

mobile.twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1460942680440061954

Ok, Ellie. I have had a really good think and have decided that if Rosie wants to talk about male bodies prisoners in women's prisons she has a right to use those words and yours is an Orwellian attempt to control language.

I want the viewers at home to also think why it might be upsetting for female bodied women to not be able to be clear and specific why the needs, inclusions and issues of female bodied women cannot be achieved by force teaming them with male bodied people.

Sex does not go away. Stating that it's too upsetting to male people to mention (which incidentally controls and subordinates female people who no one seems to care about upsetting or excluding or anything else) is insane. It's just pure sexism.

If male people find the reality of sex too distressing to face then that's an issue to address and help with. But making sex go away and subordinating female people to do it cannot be the solution.

"I don't know why some people are women and some people are men, and anyone who claims to know the answer to that question is a liar."

I know Ellie!

Crap - pressed post too soon.

The people who are liars are the ones who say that most women believe trans women are women. They don't.

You're the liar Ellie. Bootleg Owen Jones.

@Clymene

"I don't know why some people are women and some people are men, and anyone who claims to know the answer to that question is a liar."

I know Ellie!

Bonkers. How did the rest of them not burst out laughing at that point?

The replies to that tweet are full of bekind nonsense that just completely ignore that female people have issues and needs with this too. Sigh. It amazes me how people can feel so strongly about inclusion and acceptance but not realise that those things involve everyone in the situation and not just their favourite group.

So Ellie Mae can't drill down any deeper than a platitude like 'live and let live'? Really?

@Clymene

"I don't know why some people are women and some people are men, and anyone who claims to know the answer to that question is a liar."

I know Ellie!

Cripes. How the hell are we ever going to perpetuate the species?

It's brazen, Artichoke. I'm glad the newsreader did pull Ellie May up on that, though, asking whether Rosie had rights, too. No answer, sadly.

[quote zanahoria]"I want the viewers at home to really think about why it might be upsetting for a transgender woman" to have an MP "call them 'male-bodied people'" says Ellie Mae O'Hagan of the CLASS think tank

mobile.twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1460942680440061954[/quote]
Thing is… even if it is upsetting, so what?

Some people really have lost all sense of proportion

So Ellie Mae says most women think transwomen (i.e. biological males) are literally women just like them. And, the majority of women agree with her. Really? Calling that for a crock of pure and mendacious bull. Shouting this bs over people used to work. Simply as an intimidatory tactic.

RD having to talk about 'a person in a male body'. There is a word for that sex. Ellie May not happy with even that. Seems to think we can't even mention these 'persons in a male body' are persons in a male body.

Is Ellie Mae of the opinion everyone has to acknowledge them as women if they say they are? Do people have to believe in identity being the internal (religious) soul? Does it work for everything, Ellie May? If not, why not? Considering it is about sacred internal identity.

We're going backwards into the dark ages.

'Male-bodied people' is already a massive hedge and something of a weasel word. The fact that gender critical feminists use it (along with the equally weird 'male-born') instead of simply saying 'male' shows the extent to which TRAs control the language of everyone, including GC feminists.

'Male-bodied people' is already a generous accomodation. And it's still not enough for the true believers. It will never be enough. If, by some ridiculous notion, we decide to accept the religious belief that TWAW, it wouldn't be enough. We would then be pressured to call ourselves Cis. It will never be enough.

This is not about live and let live. This is comply, or else.

Ellie Mae's talking mince, anyway. Most women are not on board with self ID. She's just making it up. And diverting.

You've got to have quite a high opinion of yourself to go on national TV and proclaim your waffle is speaking for 'most' women. The fact Ellie was speaking in the abstract while Rosie gave concrete examples stood out a mile.

If it's really so difficult to differentiate between men and women, then how can gender dysphoria exist? Isn't her opinion really insulting to people who genuinely suffer with this?

I am thinking, thank you Ellie Mae and what I'm thinking is, are there any lengths to which you would not go to avoid making a transwoman upset?
Is there any point at all where you might say, 'I'm sorry if this upsets you, but biological facts and safety and dignity of women and children are important too?'
Or do the feelings of transwomen always come first?

Rosie did very well not rising to the silly inanities. Ellie-Mae's statements weren't just abstract waffles, they were utterly meaningless platitudes thrown out like some kind of passive-aggressive confetti.

But then, that's always the response, isn't it? 'How can we protect women's rights in certain very specific situations like prisons and hospital wards?' Answer: 'I'm sure we all agree that it's nice to be nice'.

I'd like Ellie Mae O'Hagan to really think about how it might be upsetting for trans people - who must, as part of their physical transformation, acknowledge and accept that they will NOT and CANNOT change sex - to constantly hear "transwomen are women, transmen are men, NO DEBATE!" and to be vilified, silenced and harrassed/banned from public forums for stating the truth about their own bodies and lives and experiences, and to hear constantly how trans people as a group are too fragile to handle the reality of biological sex when they have absolutely HAVE HAD to handle it.

Let's talk, Ellie Mae O'Hagan, about how it feels to have jumped through every possible hoop - therapy, social transition, cross-sex hormones, and the best state-of-the art surgery available - only to hear someone who's done none of it say they've "changed sex" because they say so - and to have formerly reputable journalist, politicians, etc. support that fiction without ever being trans or consulting trans people. Think of how it feels ESPECIALLY for transmen, who simply don't HAVE options for a surgical transition that keeps functionality and sensation intact.

Talk to Rosie Duffield about the impact of proposed and realised changes in law and policy on women's rights, sure. Talk with her about her own experiences being harrassed, silenced, and threatened by extremist activists hiding behind the banner of "trans rights"? Yes please. Talk to her about her experiences in Parliament and in the Labour Party, and why she thinks it is that reasonable, otherwise (or formerly) progressive/left people fail to speak out against the misogynistic rape-soaked climate that puts mens' sexual and social desires above principles of equality, equity, and justice.

But if you're going to talk about how it feels to be trans and to have to listen to a bunch of adolescent drivel from people with no real stake in the future of trans rights or trans lives - then get a trans person (or more than one) who is willing and able to talk about the pernicious effects of TWAW/TWAM and genderist ideology and no debate and the rmisogynist rape culture fostered by so-called trans rights activists. people are starting to talk about the misogyny and homophobia inherent in recent extremist mens' rights movements masquerading as "trans rights" - but let's talk about the inherent and rampant transphobia, too.

If you don't have any such contacts (HOW? after all this time!!) then perhaps start with the signatories of this recent letter to The Times.

Some data here for Ellie:

fairplayforwomen.com/polldata/

'Ideological debate over whether transwomen are women is not a useful starting point for making policy. A general tolerance for people’s right to self-express is welcome. It cannot be extrapolated into specific policy areas. As these surveys show, agreeing that a person born male can self-identify as a woman does not mean agreeing that that person should have access to female-only spaces.'

scotgoespop.blogspot.com/2021/10/exclusive-scot-goes-pop-panelbase-poll_28.html

' 21% of women support self-ID, 56% of women favour the options that exclude self-ID, and the remainder are undecided or prefer not to answer. '

A recent poll from Scotland.

Some more stats for luck:

'People tend to be fine with transgender people using facilities for their new gender, but not if they have not undergone gender reassignment surgery'

yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/07/16/where-does-british-public-stand-transgender-rights

Ellie May is utterly vacuous. I despair of educational standards in recent years.

Some people are upset when confronted with material reality.

I'd rather be called words I don't like than have a man walk into a locker room where I am naked or be locked up with a convicted sexually-motivated murderer. Luxury beliefs indeed.

Why does Ellie care so very much? Why does Ellie not ‘get’ the reverse?