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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Rosie Duffield debates with Ellie Mae O'Hagan

99 replies

zanahoria · 17/11/2021 13:18

"I want the viewers at home to really think about why it might be upsetting for a transgender woman" to have an MP "call them 'male-bodied people'" says Ellie Mae O'Hagan of the CLASS think tank

mobile.twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1460942680440061954

OP posts:
RoyalCorgi · 18/11/2021 09:29

I want the viewers at home to really think about why it might be upsetting for a transgender woman" to have an MP "call them 'male-bodied people'.

And I would like Ellie Mae to think about how upsetting it is for viewers at home to know they're paying their licence fee to listen to an utter fucking moron tell us that no one knows the difference between men and women.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/11/2021 09:44

Just saw @johnmcdonnellmp tweet thanking Ellie Mae. FFS.

Performative, innit? In the past he got TRA flack for doing a MN webchat where he didn't toe the TRA line quite enough and for meeting with WPUK.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 18/11/2021 09:45

All that silly dancing around the language is a big old distraction technique isn't it? 'Oooh - you said 'male-bodied! Let's take up 3 minutes of this 4 minute slot with me pontificating pompously about how those words will hurt people's feelings. People who matter, rather than people who don't - I'm not sure what to call each of those groups but I'm sure you know who I mean. I'll also mention TRANSGENDER WOMEN very emphatically a few times, in the knowledge that people watching at home will think I'm talking about women who are transgender, and be further befuddled into agreeing with my eminently reasonable and hugely patronising tone.'

Exactly this.

MauraandLaura · 18/11/2021 09:58

I watched this and it actually gave me the rage.

I am glad BBC are now allowing this kind of debate but O'hagen needed challenging more. When she said no one here can say why a man is a man ect.. if they do they are liars' - why was this not challenged?

But Rosie needs to stop letting people like this interrupt her. Rosie was asked several questions and O'hagen just talked over her. Rosie is very brave sticking her head abider the parapet and for that I am grateful - if more ladies like Rosie come forward I will absolutely think about going back to labour.

O'hagen clearly doesn't give a shit about the women in prisons or hospital wards - its all about pleasing the men. and her outrage at women having concerns about it made me feel ill. Most women think like O'hagen apparently ...

MauraandLaura · 18/11/2021 10:01

I want the viewers at home to really think about why it might be upsetting for a transgender woman" to have an MP "call them 'male-bodied people'

You couldn't make it up could you. I dont think these people realise how fucking patronising they are.

NotBadConsidering · 18/11/2021 10:05

I think this is right up there with “Most Batshit Crazy Thing Said by a TRA 2021” and that’s a hotly contested category. As Chandler said to Joey, how does she not fall down more?

ArabellaScott · 18/11/2021 10:10

@WinterTrees

All that silly dancing around the language is a big old distraction technique isn't it? 'Oooh - you said 'male-bodied! Let's take up 3 minutes of this 4 minute slot with me pontificating pompously about how those words will hurt people's feelings. People who matter, rather than people who don't - I'm not sure what to call each of those groups but I'm sure you know who I mean. I'll also mention TRANSGENDER WOMEN very emphatically a few times, in the knowledge that people watching at home will think I'm talking about women who are transgender, and be further befuddled into agreeing with my eminently reasonable and hugely patronising tone.'

Live and let live - who could argue with that? Shut up about working class women in prisons and closed hospital wards Rosie Duffield, you're bringing the mood down.

Yes, it's just empty rhetoric and diversion and fake anger. All skilled politicians use these devices, I suppose. There's no conviction behind any of it. But it fools a fair few people.
Tobogganist · 18/11/2021 10:39

Same here @MauraandLaura, totally agree. Labour needs to listen!

"- if more ladies like Rosie come forward I will absolutely think about going back to labour".

RoyalCorgi · 18/11/2021 10:45

I think this is right up there with “Most Batshit Crazy Thing Said by a TRA 2021” and that’s a hotly contested category.

Isn't it just. We could probably do a Mumsnet thread in December where we nominate people for the "Most batshit crazy thing a TRA has said this year." Will be difficult to narrow it down.

You have to wonder how people like Ellie Mae function on a daily basis if they don't know who's a woman and who's a man.

Personwithrage · 18/11/2021 11:51

John McDonnell's tweet praising Ellie-Mae O' Hagen....for her response to a woman speaking up for abused, vulnerable women incarcerated with rapists.....absolutely beyond shocking! Completely ignoring Rosie Duffield's input or points, completely ignoring the women she was advocating for and fawning over a woman so ignorant she stated out loud she doesn't know why some people are men and some are woman. Why would you hang your hat on her peg John?!

Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet · 18/11/2021 17:22

@RoyalCorgi

I think this is right up there with “Most Batshit Crazy Thing Said by a TRA 2021” and that’s a hotly contested category.

Isn't it just. We could probably do a Mumsnet thread in December where we nominate people for the "Most batshit crazy thing a TRA has said this year." Will be difficult to narrow it down.

You have to wonder how people like Ellie Mae function on a daily basis if they don't know who's a woman and who's a man.

#nodebate is finished. And the more this issue is talked about in the public sphere, the more delicious contenders there will be for this award!
Thefartingsofaofdenmarkstreet · 18/11/2021 17:24

@Personwithrage

John McDonnell's tweet praising Ellie-Mae O' Hagen....for her response to a woman speaking up for abused, vulnerable women incarcerated with rapists.....absolutely beyond shocking! Completely ignoring Rosie Duffield's input or points, completely ignoring the women she was advocating for and fawning over a woman so ignorant she stated out loud she doesn't know why some people are men and some are woman. Why would you hang your hat on her peg John?!
Women don't matter a shite.

We should all know this by now.

Why give a fuck about women when you can put males first always and look woke and progressive in the process? You don't even have to pretend you care! It's a win all round for people like McDonnell.

StillWeRise · 18/11/2021 17:36

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Thing is… even if it is upsetting, so what?

I think we need to start responding with that, or similar unequivocal statements. I think many people are getting pissed off by all the melodramatic special pleading.

yeah! I just showed this to DP and he said... I was crap at cricket, THAT was really upsetting, people took the piss all the time but I got over it
EarthSight · 18/11/2021 17:46

I continue to be astounded by the embarrassing, extraordinary things people will say -

'I don't actually know why some people are women, are some people are men. No one on this panel does, um, and anyone who claims to know the answer to that question is a liar'.

She writes for the Guardian, which shouldn't surprise anyone here.

EarthSight · 18/11/2021 17:48

'The majority of women agree with me on this issue'

ERRMMMM......WHAT????

What planet is she living on??????????

Artichokeleaves · 18/11/2021 17:50

If the facts don't fit my narrative I'll just believe alternatives
cos otherwise my brain will blow up.....

Tim Minchin

HatefulHaberdashery · 19/11/2021 18:14

Yes, I've come back to this extraordinary statement and clip to say, if dealing with someone who is either as ignorant as Ellie Mae is pretending to be (or maybe she genuinely is that ignorant?) it's imperative to robustly challenge the scientifically illiterate nonsense sprouted there and then!

It's genuinely worrying to let such clown statements hang in the ether.

CatalepticOnion · 21/11/2021 20:41

This thing about . . . .the right of transgender people to use facilities for their chosen gender, . . . but not all facilities are meant for a particular gender. Some/many are intended for a particular sex. And they say we have to take care not to conflate sex and gender! Trans rights activists do it all the time and build the case for trans rights on exactly this conflation of the two. Amazing if they can't spot their own deliberate mistakes! What do those hormones do to people?

CatalepticOnion · 21/11/2021 20:56

"Thing is… even if it is upsetting, so what?" Yes that's the point isn't it. If reality upsets you it really isn't the rest of humanity's problem such that we should have to tiptoe around pretending we can't see it. Human beings can't change sex and that's a fact of life. Most of us don't want to change sex happily, but those who do must seek to engage and overcome the disappointment with experiencing that it just isn't possible. By all means ask for our help in the effort to come to terms with reality, but don't demand of us to deny reality in the mistaken belief that this is kind and respecting. It's not at all in the long run in fact it's rather dishonest and patronising to make a pretence of agreeing with a point of view you actually don't agree with for the sake of not hurting someone's feelings. In effect you're telling that person you regard him as not fully adult and inadequate in some way such that you think he needs your protection from truth.

BettyFilous · 21/11/2021 21:00

@RoyalCorgi

I think this is right up there with “Most Batshit Crazy Thing Said by a TRA 2021” and that’s a hotly contested category.

Isn't it just. We could probably do a Mumsnet thread in December where we nominate people for the "Most batshit crazy thing a TRA has said this year." Will be difficult to narrow it down.

You have to wonder how people like Ellie Mae function on a daily basis if they don't know who's a woman and who's a man.

Nancy Kelly needs her own category. It’s not fair on the others if you don’t separate her out.
Isthatthebestyoucando · 22/11/2021 18:02

Brilliant response, I love this woman's poetry.

foxgoosefinch · 22/11/2021 18:31

@CatalepticOnion

"Thing is… even if it is upsetting, so what?" Yes that's the point isn't it. If reality upsets you it really isn't the rest of humanity's problem such that we should have to tiptoe around pretending we can't see it. Human beings can't change sex and that's a fact of life. Most of us don't want to change sex happily, but those who do must seek to engage and overcome the disappointment with experiencing that it just isn't possible. By all means ask for our help in the effort to come to terms with reality, but don't demand of us to deny reality in the mistaken belief that this is kind and respecting. It's not at all in the long run in fact it's rather dishonest and patronising to make a pretence of agreeing with a point of view you actually don't agree with for the sake of not hurting someone's feelings. In effect you're telling that person you regard him as not fully adult and inadequate in some way such that you think he needs your protection from truth.
This, absolutely.

The whole "My feelings are upset therefore I demand special treatment" thing is infantilising, petulant and demanding.

I know many women who have experienced awful things - trauma, rape, stillbirth, miscarriage, sexual violence, domestic abuse. There's very little care given for their feelings - from schools to courts to hospitals. The number of times I hear about friends who have been scheduled for a D&C on a ward with pregnant women, fobbed off with painful medical procedures, told they have to work with the person who has sexually harassed them or listen to sexist jokes in the office, stuck in a court proceeding with no way away from an abusive ex -- and, apart from the occasional bit of lip service, women are largely expected to put up and shut up and their feelings be damned.

A man feels sad he wasn't born a woman and we all have to rally round and he can never feel an ounce of reality or inconvenience so that someone else can come first for a while?

Fuck that. If men want to be grown-ups, they shouldn't be lobbying to be treated like special children one minute and princes (princesses?) of the realm the next.

"Vulnerable adult" used to be a phrase reserved for those with severe mental or physical health issues, learning difficulties and severe trauma - people who were in the comparable position to a child. It wasn't meant to mean "anyone who's got any mild mental health problem or anyone wants to be thought of as needing special treatment" - eg. as in "vulnerable minority".

(Also - people belonging to a specific minority might be in general more prone to being vulnerable; but that doesn't make the individual people in this category all vulnerable adults, and there's been a kind of disastrous confusion between these two ideas, where you get people who identify as a specific minority also claiming that they personally are "vulnerable people"!) So you get this nonsense of strapping great male-bodied people who say they have "dysphoria" being treated as though they have extreme disadvantage and must be tiptoed around like inpatients who can't be told about reality in case it tips them over the edge.

Beckert · 22/11/2021 19:20

Safety is more important than hurt or offended feelings.

drum123 · 22/11/2021 19:31

isthatthebestyoucando, thanks for sharing that video. Wonderful, wonderful poetry.

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