Rosie Duffield debates with Ellie Mae O'Hagan

[zanahoria]

"I want the viewers at home to really think about why it might be upsetting for a transgender woman" to have an MP "call them 'male-bodied people'" says Ellie Mae O'Hagan of the CLASS think tank

mobile.twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1460942680440061954

@Clymene

"I don't know why some people are women and some people are men, and anyone who claims to know the answer to that question is a liar."

I know Ellie!

She lost me at this! I was like…. erm … basic biology.

I've just read about a man who broke into a 67 year old charity volunteer's home, raped her, beat her to death and then used her debit card to buy himself cigarettes. He's got a minimum 19 years in prison, despite already having a rape conviction. The women was called Esther Brown and I believe at least one of her friends is on this board. I am not in the mood to hear about men boo-hooing over being called men. How lucky you are if that's what hurts you.

Wow she really is quite the grifter

go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=classonline.org.uk/about And if her story of how she met isn't the archetypal heterosexual romance I don't know what is.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/25/married-romantic-relationship-husband-solidarity

I bet Ellie Mae knows who is a man and who is a woman when she's having sex with her husband

@EsmaCannonball

I've just read about a man who broke into a 67 year old charity volunteer's home, raped her, beat her to death and then used her debit card to buy himself cigarettes. He's got a minimum 19 years in prison, despite already having a rape conviction. The women was called Esther Brown and I believe at least one of her friends is on this board. I am not in the mood to hear about men boo-hooing over being called men. How lucky you are if that's what hurts you.

That's just horrific. What a disgusting man.

I'm OK with one group of people feeling upset if it is the byproduct of a necessary action that actually safeguards another group of people (some of whom will also be in that first group).

If the action is necessary (which it is. Statistics tell us females need safeguarding from males in some circumstances) then the upset group need to find a way to live with the term that upsets them. They might need support with this. Especially given they've been gaslit that they are vulnerable and that people who use these terms mean them harm.

Perhaps those that purport to care so much for this group could help genuinely support them?

Suggestion for how that support could be worded:

"You guys! Male and female are medical terms that occasionally have to be used by people such as doctors and the police, to help look after us all. There's no value judgement attached to those words and they're nothing to do with stereotyping y'all. It's not the same as your gender ID. Your gender ID is still yours."

'I don't know why some people are women and some people are men, and anyone who claims to know the answer to that question is a liar."'

I had to check at that point that I had actually heard correctly, and hadn't in fact gone insane. Do these people even bother to listen to the drivel that comes out of their own mouths?

Ellie's main debating tactic is to tell as many lies as possible so her opponent cannot pick up on them and then accuse her opponent of lying.

Somebody should have set a fire extinguisher on her her pants.

On the polls, she started with the statement most women support trans rights. Yes When you phrase it that way people agree but does not mean they agree with TWAW

Esma, that case was utterly horrific. to anyone who knew Esther Brown. I'm so very sorry.

Thing is… even if it is upsetting, so what?

I think we need to start responding with that, or similar unequivocal statements. I think many people are getting pissed off by all the melodramatic special pleading.

I’m upset that I’m getting old (I mean, how did that happen??). I can’t have a hissy fit every time someone mentions age or I pass a mirror.

You cannot deny biological reality transwomen are just men with surgery and female HRT.

For goodness sake get over it!

Yes, even if you take the view that 'I'm upset' is a legitimate debating point, it really is fascinating to see whose feelings are given priority.

@Lottapianos

'I don't know why some people are women and some people are men, and anyone who claims to know the answer to that question is a liar."'

I had to check at that point that I had actually heard correctly, and hadn't in fact gone insane. Do these people even bother to listen to the drivel that comes out of their own mouths?

I can't really parse it out. Does she mean in a sort of philosophical sense - 'why are we all here?' type of way?

Or does she mean in a biological sense, what makes someone a man or a woman? Because ...

@Floisme

Yes, even if you take the view that 'I'm upset' is a legitimate debating point, it really is fascinating to see whose feelings are given priority.

Real woman always seem to rank below every other category when are our feelings and interests going to be given weight? I get upset every time I read about the trans lobby's deluded campaigns lets ban those!

'Or does she mean in a biological sense, what makes someone a man or a woman? Because '

Yes, I think that's what she means - that it's for every person to define themselves as a man or a woman based on their own identity, or feelings, or some other stupid shit. I mean, FFS. They really should have all just laughed in her face

[quote zanahoria]"I want the viewers at home to really think about why it might be upsetting for a transgender woman" to have an MP "call them 'male-bodied people'" says Ellie Mae O'Hagan of the CLASS think tank

mobile.twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1460942680440061954[/quote]
I have thought about it and there are far, far worse truths to to hear. I don’t think anyone gets through life without having to confront and deal with painful truths.

"I want the viewers at home to really think about why it might be upsetting for a transgender woman" to have an MP "call them 'male-bodied people'" says Ellie Mae O'Hagan of the CLASS think tank

It may well be. And if the truth doesn't affect anyone else then it's kind not to say it. Or even if it affects other people in minor ways. But when the choice is upsetting one person or actively harming another, choose upset.

@zanahoria

Ellie's main debating tactic is to tell as many lies as possible so her opponent cannot pick up on them and then accuse her opponent of lying.

Somebody should have set a fire extinguisher on her her pants.

On the polls, she started with the statement most women support trans rights. Yes When you phrase it that way people agree but does not mean they agree with TWAW

I can't remember what the debate technique is called, but Donald Trump did the same thing during the Presidential Debate...

it's for every person to define themselves as a man or a woman based
on their own identity, or feelings

Elvis: 'gishgalloping'.

Gish Galloping! That's what it's called.

It's one of the main tactics of TRAs and their supporters, as they don't seem to be able to win the argument in good faith.

Thanks @ArabellaScott

I'm quite fond of Rosie, but don't envy her. Soon they will be baying for her blood on Twitter, if they're not already.

I was a disappointed in the responses from some men on Twitter...."Why are we even discussing this when it only affects a tiny minority of people?" sort of thing. The ignorance is shocking.

@FloralBunting

'Male-bodied people' is already a generous accomodation. And it's still not enough for the true believers. It will never be enough. If, by some ridiculous notion, we decide to accept the religious belief that TWAW, it wouldn't be enough. We would then be pressured to call ourselves Cis. It will never be enough.

This is not about live and let live. This is comply, or else.

This all the way.

If EMO wants to bend the knee to the overlords and centre their demands over the rights of all women and girls then she can have it - the rest of us will get on with the business of resisting the genderist bs.

Lachlan Stuart wrote about Ellie Mae (amongst others) in his blog post about the 2019 Labour Manifesto. He was working to get a comprehensive healthcare package in there for trans people with a multi million pound budget ring fenced.

This is what he had to say

But it dismayed trans people, according to Heather’s account and the actions of pop-up people like Ellie-Mae and her ilk. It dismayed the pop up people and LGBT Labour because it was the removal of the established legal rights of women that interested them.

Nowhere, ever, have I seen any recognition from any of them of the astonishingly bold, tangible and very expensive commitment that we gave to improve the lives of trans people by ensuring adequate and much improved access to health care services.

It’s not because they didn’t know.

It’s because that’s not what they’re interested in.

lachlanstuart.medium.com/the-confessions-of-a-transphobe-b4942c06e6e4

And it's still not enough for the true believers. It will never be enough.

I'm seeing a lot more women saying "men", I think this has become clear. The outraged pearl clutching over "male bodied" by EOH and others isn't going to be enough to put this genie back in. "Be kind" only ever goes one way. It's all nonsense. Women have had enough.