Rosie Duffield debates with Ellie Mae O'Hagan

[zanahoria]

"I want the viewers at home to really think about why it might be upsetting for a transgender woman" to have an MP "call them 'male-bodied people'" says Ellie Mae O'Hagan of the CLASS think tank

mobile.twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1460942680440061954

@Ereshkigalangcleg

And it's still not enough for the true believers. It will never be enough.

I'm seeing a lot more women saying "men", I think this has become clear. The outraged pearl clutching over "male bodied" by EOH and others isn't going to be enough to put this genie back in. "Be kind" only ever goes one way. It's all nonsense. Women have had enough.

Absolutely Eresh, more and more of us resisting every day. ^ ^ The genderist genie ain't going back in the bottle of #nodebate

@Clymene

"I don't know why some people are women and some people are men, and anyone who claims to know the answer to that question is a liar."

I know Ellie!

Ellie Mae is the failed output of a seriously flawed educational system if she sincerely believes that.

So she doesn't know the basic facts of conception? The "X" sperm fertilising the "X" egg?

And to promote such ignorance on National TV too! I despair.

That was a scientifically and legally illiterate sentence, Ellie Dear. Suggest someone let her have a look at section 212 of the Equality Act:
A Man is a "Male of any age".
A woman is a "female of any age".

Let's have more of this, bring it on.

Let the world see that all they have is 'live and let live' and 'be kind' and 'most people agree with me' and absolutely fuck all of any substance.

Let's have it!

[quote zanahoria]"I want the viewers at home to really think about why it might be upsetting for a transgender woman" to have an MP "call them 'male-bodied people'" says Ellie Mae O'Hagan of the CLASS think tank

mobile.twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1460942680440061954[/quote]
I'd rather think about how upsetting it is to women to deny their own reality and lived experience in their female sexed bodies, which has gone through periods, sexual harassment and assault, domestic abuse, pregnancy, breast and cervical cancer, just to placate the feelings of a few biological males.

That BBC politics clip ended perfectly. Spot on.

[quote OvaHere]Lachlan Stuart wrote about Ellie Mae (amongst others) in his blog post about the 2019 Labour Manifesto. He was working to get a comprehensive healthcare package in there for trans people with a multi million pound budget ring fenced.

This is what he had to say

But it dismayed trans people, according to Heather’s account and the actions of pop-up people like Ellie-Mae and her ilk. It dismayed the pop up people and LGBT Labour because it was the removal of the established legal rights of women that interested them.

Nowhere, ever, have I seen any recognition from any of them of the astonishingly bold, tangible and very expensive commitment that we gave to improve the lives of trans people by ensuring adequate and much improved access to health care services.

It’s not because they didn’t know.

It’s because that’s not what they’re interested in.

lachlanstuart.medium.com/the-confessions-of-a-transphobe-b4942c06e6e4[/quote]
Self-aggrandising pop up people.

"I don't know why some people are women and some people are men, and anyone who claims to know the answer to that question is a liar."'

It feels like this is veering towards stork delivery or cabbage patch territory. And why does she assume that no-one else on the panel did GCSE Science when it's been compulsory for decades? So odd.

The juxtaposition of an MP talking about serious safeguarding issues including rape and sexual abuse with someone who "has a couple of trans friends" complaining about hurt feelings and insisting on policing other panellists' language instead of responding to substantive points highlights just how bizarre all of this is.

And in addition to exposing the illogic for what it is, the fact that the era of #NoDebate has finally ended also highlights the benefits of allowing debate in the development of people's critical thinking. Transactivists have done themselves a massive disservice in shutting down all debate, as they haven't had to push themselves to properly scrutinise what they're actually saying before now.

"I want the viewers at home to really think about why it might be upsetting for a transgender woman" to have an MP "call them 'male-bodied people'" says Ellie Mae O'Hagan of the CLASS think tank

I want the viewers at home to really think about why it might be upsetting for a woman to be told that being a woman is about clothes, hair or make-up, about being emotional, submissive or vulnerable and that we have to accept that any man who feels a preference for feminine stereotypes can declare himself a woman and that we must accept that he is exactly the same as us. I think that's offensive, upsetting and above all a sexist load of bullshit. And I'll be damned if I accept that sexist BS is an acceptable definition of what a woman is.

Especially since I have rejected those stereotypes from an early age and Ellie Mae and her ilk are essentially framing woman as people who embody those stereotypes and thereby suggest that there is a correct way to be a woman - to embrace femininity - and I don't.

Of course, the latest idiocy is that trans rights activists like Ellie Mae are now denying that gender identity has anything to do with stereotypes and that they never claimed it was. Which offends me with the sheer stupidity and audacity of that claim.

So, if feelings matter, I decided that my feelings matter too. And I'm feeling pissed off about having to waste so much time and energy dealing with this bullshit.

Well said!

@LonginesPrime

"I don't know why some people are women and some people are men, and anyone who claims to know the answer to that question is a liar."'

It feels like this is veering towards stork delivery or cabbage patch territory. And why does she assume that no-one else on the panel did GCSE Science when it's been compulsory for decades? So odd.

The juxtaposition of an MP talking about serious safeguarding issues including rape and sexual abuse with someone who "has a couple of trans friends" complaining about hurt feelings and insisting on policing other panellists' language instead of responding to substantive points highlights just how bizarre all of this is.

And in addition to exposing the illogic for what it is, the fact that the era of #NoDebate has finally ended also highlights the benefits of allowing debate in the development of people's critical thinking. Transactivists have done themselves a massive disservice in shutting down all debate, as they haven't had to push themselves to properly scrutinise what they're actually saying before now.

Absoloutely spot on!

The scariest thing is she has a bunch of equally deluded, and/ or poorly educated individuals convincing her she did a wonderful job.

I'm gobsmacked. Does the government really think women are going to hand over our rights to people who don't even have basic biology knowlege, or any critical thinking skills, and instead resort to bare-faced lies?
twitter.com/notthatbeard/status/1461038528624791560?s=21

I just watched it.

Never seen either of them speak before.

I hate to say it but I thought Ellie came across better. I mean talking bollocks obv. Rosie seemed nervous and I'm not surprised. And no I could definitely not do even slightly as good a job as Rosie!

That's what I saw though.. As a comfy person at home not exposing myself to massive hostility threats etc. I really wish she had picked up on that no one knows what a man or a woman is if they say they do they're lying.

I mean wtf!

Does Ellie call herself a woman? Her mum? Sisters aunts daughters etc? If so why? If she doesn't know what it means.

I mean what an utterly ridiculous thing to say FFS.

I hope Rosie somehow can shrug off the massive pile of insults accusations and threats coming her way. And thank you Rosie for doing it. I mean speaking out on this is so brave.

So condescending to want the viewers at home to think about why a transwoman would be upset to be called 'male-bodied' !!!
Who does she think she is? She's behaving like a traitor to women.
She talked over Rosie then says ' can I just finish my point?'
And she's a friend of Owen J.
Nuff said
#nothankyou

😂

I hate to say it but I thought Ellie came across better. I mean talking bollocks obv. Rosie seemed nervous and I'm not surprised. And no I could definitely not do even slightly as good a job as Rosie!

That's what I saw though.. As a comfy person at home not exposing myself to massive hostility threats etc. I really wish she had picked up on that no one knows what a man or a woman is if they say they do they're lying.

I have only ever seen Rosie Duffield talking about this issue, and when she did her speech about DV in Parliament (which understandably she probably very nervous about). I know what you mean, she always seems to be a bit uncomfortable, which really isn't surprising given that she is pretty much the only MP who has the ovaries to talk about this stuff in public. But at the same time she is calm and resolute and I feel that as this issue gets debated more widely and hopefully more people start backing her up, she will become more comfortable....Or it could just be that that is her general manner and just the way she is.

Ellie Mae O'Hagan comes across as someone who is totally used to confidently spouting utter bullshit, without giving a shit that its bull because it makes her 'look good'. These people need proper challenging, and without being able to deflect and divert. Asked simple questions that require simple answers.

Thanks. Total respect for her.

I was on Twitter looking a bit and both 'sides' were saying nailed it! So I gave what I thought.

Most people at home will have tuned the whole thing out if they weren't already interested, also my honest opinion. Only because it must all sound baffling to anyone who isn't aware/ not very aware of this topic.

What @CheeseMmmm says... Rosie came across as just SO nice and polite, and she let herself be steamrollered over by the other woman. Rosie hardly got a word in.
BUT Rosie is an MP and so is a power in the land.
The other lady is just a journalist.

I don 't like the 'male bodied' either, but it made the point I think, although the words 'penis' and 'testicles' thrown in somewhere might have helped to get the point across. - I prefer more descriptive phrases myself, none of which we are allowed to use on this hallowed platform. So sadly we can't discuss our phrases of choice here.

It's a bit of fickitiness for me-

Male bodied leaves open the idea that something about them might not be male.

Until the words male and female are gone (it's being worked on...) I'm gonna stick with male and female.

Anyway like I say. Nitpicking when if I was in her place I'd... Well. Well done on a really difficult job. I don't envy Rosie vv brave sticking neck out and keeping at it. Incredible bravery and resolution.

What I saw was Ellie Mae O'Hagan directing her frustration at whatever Rosie Driffield says with disproportionate outrage, grandiosity and lack of empathy.

All that silly dancing around the language is a big old distraction technique isn't it? 'Oooh - you said 'male-bodied! Let's take up 3 minutes of this 4 minute slot with me pontificating pompously about how those words will hurt people's feelings. People who matter, rather than people who don't - I'm not sure what to call each of those groups but I'm sure you know who I mean. I'll also mention TRANSGENDER WOMEN very emphatically a few times, in the knowledge that people watching at home will think I'm talking about women who are transgender, and be further befuddled into agreeing with my eminently reasonable and hugely patronising tone.'

Live and let live - who could argue with that? Shut up about working class women in prisons and closed hospital wards Rosie Duffield, you're bringing the mood down.

Just saw @johnmcdonnellmp tweet thanking Ellie Mae. FFS.

That tweet from John McDonnell is vomit inducing

Saw the John McDonnell tweet this morning. Good god, the utter state of it. I hope he's secretly ashamed of himself, because he flaming well should be

Flipping 'eck, John McDonnell's a shit communist. Stalin would probably have him digging some canal.

@Lottapianos

Saw the John McDonnell tweet this morning. Good god, the utter state of it. I hope he's secretly ashamed of himself, because he flaming well should be

The striking thing about the ideology that O'Hagan is promoting is that it is so fundamentally right wing.

'How dare you call me male bodied' is the equivalent of 'How dare you suggest the Queen is just a normal person like anyone else'.

Prejudice and inequality are caused by external perceptions (this person is female and should act and present in a particular way) and indirect discrimination (the safety equipment does not fit women). It has nothing to do with an internal sense of identity. If it did women who reject social norms of femininity wouldn't suffer from sexism and it would be possible to control periods, fertility etc. etc. by force of will.

However according to O'Hagan, it's more important to protect ego and status than to use language to talk about equality.

It is a position of absolute privilege and disdain for working class women