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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Woman's Hour now: BBC walking away from Stonewall

314 replies

nauticant · 11/11/2021 10:06

Emma Barnett is asking the questions.

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 12/11/2021 08:10

They should have run the entire thing past the Director of Better.

Oh yes Grin

DoctorTwo · 12/11/2021 08:26

I listened last night and was prepared for the pause. Well, I thought I was prepared. It went on so long I had to check my connection wasn't buffering. Usually dead radio is just that, but this silence spoke volumes. Well done Woman's Hour and welcome back.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 12/11/2021 09:05

@JustcameoutGC

I am going on to war footing next week on our style guide which is straight from SW, and in which i am a cis woman and opposite gender attracted. This broadcast has made it just that bit easier. Thanks emma.
Please do, it seems a minor point but it really isn't because of the way in which style guides can be used to manipulate the official dictionaries into changing the meaning of words.
Shewholovedthethebanhills · 12/11/2021 09:10

I’m curious as to the TRA reaction. I don’t think anyone could have answered EB better because I don’t think there are any answers that would have stood up to her relentless, logical scrutiny, but are they telling him what he should have said? And why has nobody been on this thread educating and correcting us?

Tanith · 12/11/2021 09:22

@borntobequiet

There’s a difference between paying to keep up registration/accreditation with an established professional body and paying for the privilege of adhering to semi-fictitious rules made up by a lobbying body that exist mainly to further its bank balance.
There certainly is but, especially with large organisations, it's easy to get caught up in the latter. The long, long list of companies and Government bodies bears testimony to that.

I can remember when a company I worked for decided to go for ISO9000 accreditation. They employed an organisation to help achieve this.
That company went right through every department, disrupting work, insisting on training, documentation re-writes - it went on for about a year.
When a director found his staff re-writing the photocopier manual, they pulled the plug on the company and launched an investigation. The CEO of the rogue company turned out to be a good friend of another director...
In the end, they achieved accreditation by taking over another, already accredited company - but that's another story!

And don't get me started on the number of Early Years Accreditation programmes I've seen over the years - all paperwork heavy, all needing training.

Professional accreditation is a good thing, but the amount of money companies waste on unnecessary schemes to prove they're doing the right thing is shocking.

Stonewall saw their opportunity and took it.

Tanith · 12/11/2021 09:24

Sorry - should have said "They employed a company". It was two ex-employees from the company their director friend had previously worked for.

InflagranteDelicto · 12/11/2021 09:58

Thank goodness for sounds. That interview was cracking. And yes, what a pause!

jhuizinga · 12/11/2021 10:03

This is a good article in today's Telegraph. Unfortunately, it's behind a paywall and I don't know about archiving.

www.telegraph.co.uk/columnists/2021/11/11/stonewall-won-everyone-lost/

MrsMadderRose · 12/11/2021 10:07

It's so interesting seeing something like saying "only biological women can get pregnant" become unallowable, yet everyone knows it describes a basic truth (even if you try to change the meanings of words, there's still a clearly classifiable type of person that is the only type that gets pregnant). You can hear people thinking "that makes sense, but I'm not allowed to say it" and drifting helplessly up semantic shit creek.

Alektopteryx · 12/11/2021 10:07

[quote jhuizinga]This is a good article in today's Telegraph. Unfortunately, it's behind a paywall and I don't know about archiving.

www.telegraph.co.uk/columnists/2021/11/11/stonewall-won-everyone-lost/[/quote]

Archived here: web.archive.org/web/20211111222156/www.telegraph.co.uk/columnists/2021/11/11/stonewall-won-everyone-lost/

McDuffy · 12/11/2021 10:07

Thanks @jhuizinga, I have a sub at the moment in addition to my Times one as their coverage is quite good on this; there's a decent deal for new subscribers that popped up for me on an alternative browser.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 12/11/2021 10:07

[quote jhuizinga]This is a good article in today's Telegraph. Unfortunately, it's behind a paywall and I don't know about archiving.

www.telegraph.co.uk/columnists/2021/11/11/stonewall-won-everyone-lost/[/quote]
Someone's already saved it if you put the URL into

web.archive.org

How much more quietly did hundreds of those same institutions sign up in the first place? When the Foreign Office paid to join Stonewall’s workplace diversity scheme in July, for example, it did so without ministerial approval. And the involvement of Stonewall is critical, because it is campaigning not just to change the ethos within individual organisations, it is lobbying to change the law for us all. In 2015, for example, it sought to “remove exemptions” to the Equality Act, “such as access to single sex spaces” – which would have allowed those born biologically male (but self-identifying as female), to enter places like refuges for women who are victims of domestic abuse. A year later, at the House of Commons (also a paying Stonewall “diversity champion”), the Women & Equalities Select Committee echoed and promoted that very same stance.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 12/11/2021 10:10

x-post with Alektopteryx - I'm never too sure about posting archive links at present as some seem to be filtered.

Ekofisk · 12/11/2021 10:27

From the Telegraph article:

While renewing its membership of Stonewall’s diversity champions scheme this year, the Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport noted it would no longer accept Stonewall’s legal advice. Its legal advice? Indeed. Those making the law are paying a lobby group to provide help with the law.

Nicely put.

LangificusClegasaurous · 12/11/2021 10:28

My flabber is truly gasted, however, by the BBC chap implying that stating that only biological women can get pregnant is part of a highly sensitive and complex debate rather than a fact.

TRA plan A: No Debate

TRA plan B: Whether men can be women is a highly sensitive and complex debate

MonsignorMirth · 12/11/2021 11:29

I can remember when a company I worked for decided to go for ISO9000 accreditation. They employed an organisation to help achieve this.
That company went right through every department, disrupting work, insisting on training, documentation re-writes - it went on for about a year.
When a director found his staff re-writing the photocopier manual, they pulled the plug on the company and launched an investigation. The CEO of the rogue company turned out to be a good friend of another director...
In the end, they achieved accreditation by taking over another, already accredited company - but that's another story!

That's simultaneously hilarious, scary and all-too- predictable...

jhuizinga · 12/11/2021 12:26

Thanks, Alek and Embarrassing for the archive link and tip. Yes, the Telegraph has had quite a few good articles on this issue recently (and not just the ones by Suzanne Moore). Not at all sure how I ended up reading the Times and the Telegraph, appreciating the Daily Mail and avoiding the Guardian though (I would do a shocked face emoji here if I could work out how).

nancywhisky · 12/11/2021 12:28

The Telegraph is good.
Boris takes his lead from them.

nauticant · 12/11/2021 12:36

I rather like this wording:

They say the process of identifying with a gender other than that of your biological sex

ie sex is unchanged and there's an identification into something, whatever that may be, that isn't one's sex.

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MonsignorMirth · 12/11/2021 12:41

@nauticant

I rather like this wording:

They say the process of identifying with a gender other than that of your biological sex

ie sex is unchanged and there's an identification into something, whatever that may be, that isn't one's sex.

It's also saying that a gender can be "of your biological sex", so the two are linked in some way. Shame no-one can ever explain what that overlap is.
nauticant · 12/11/2021 12:54

There will have been satisfaction in Stonewall back in April that Allison Bailey's full hearing was kicked into the long grass of Spring 2022 based on the assumption that by then everything will have calmed down and the Stonewall story will have gone cold.

The way things are going the Stonewall story could still be active as the hearing approaches. A lot of journalists are now primed to pick up on a very juicy addition to the unfolding saga. It wasn't supposed to be like that.

It is a shame the hearing isn't happening sooner though.

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TheWeeDonkey · 12/11/2021 13:10

@nauticant

EB: "You must have thought something had happened to threaten that trust."

BBC drone: "No."

EB: "Shall I give you examples from the Nolan podcast?"

Oof. Thanks for the heads up, I'll give it a listen
teawamutu · 12/11/2021 13:12

Just listened to it. Emma Barnett is fantastic - clear, direct and unflinching.

MonsignorMirth · 12/11/2021 13:26

Good point nauticant re Allison Bailey's case.

CompleteGinasaur · 12/11/2021 13:57

[quote FannyCann]Oh dear. Seems quite a lot of BBC workers are about to discover no one is indispensable and jobs with prestigious organisations may not be quite so easy to find just now.

BBC staff vow to QUIT over plans to end Stonewall relationship
mol.im/a/10191733[/quote]
Just had a look at this - thanks FannyCann - and amongst all the unattributed waffle (which in fact was what made me suspect the author in the first place) was the legend " according to Vice World News". Click on the link, and sure enough it originates with ex BBC failure Ben Hunte..

(Not to suggest that he's got previous filing undocumented sensationalist propaganda stories or anything...)