School not using "girl" and "boy"

[Personwithrage]

My year 7 DC had a session on puberty in RHSE yesterday. As part of this they labelled diagrams of "people with penises" and "people with vaginas" so as to "not make transgender people uncomfortable" as someone could be "born a boy but believe their personality makes them a girl".

I am so so cross.

I don't have a gender identity, absolutely and wholeheartedly reject regressive stereotypes and have brought DC up to challenge them and to believe they can do and be whoever they want to be. I have also always talked about biological reality and believe that whatever you do, say, wear or think you are still a boy or girl as defined by your biology.

Am I over reacting? Is it unreasonable and excluding to expect puberty lessons to refer to male and female, boy and girl? Is it not ok for my child to refer to themselves in terms they're comfortable with? Are there really lots of 11 year olds with gender dysphoria and a sense of gender identity such that this rings true?

[quote Gmom]@Whatiswrongwithmyknee I haven't read this whole thread but I saw that you think it's valid to teach a girl who is menstruating about menstruation without mentioning the word "vagina." That's just not true. No if ands or buts here. You're wrong. There is tons of evidence that children need to be able to label their own body parts for their health and safety. How would a girl describe an assault accurately? How would she describe a health problem accurately? Having a hang up about the word "vagina" and passing that on to young girls is very damaging. It's a medical word used to describe a part of the vulva. Nothing scary or rude about it.

This article is just shocking.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/may/30/most-britons-cannot-name-parts-vulva-survey

[/quote]
No, you've mis-read this. I used the word vagina and other 'medical' words from when my kids were very young. But some people don't and we should not exclude kids from sex ed just because their parents did not want to/ were not able to use the word 'vagina'. I was not talking about my own experience and have no hang ups myself.

People do manage to talk about menstruation without mentioning the word vagina - of course they do. You can perfectly well describe blood coming out of you once a month without using the word vagina. Some people might not use the exact word because of a hang up but others might just have grown up using other words.

You seem to be one of those people who don't label things correctly btw! Vagina is internal, vulva is external. The vagina is not a part of the vulva, it's an attached structure. The vaginal opening could be considered part of the vulva but the vagina itself is not. The general lack of knowledge in this area is exactly one of the reasons why we need to be much more explicit regarding whose body we are actually talking about.

www.naturalcycles.com/cyclematters/what-is-the-vulva

I feel unnerved and more vulnerable just by the very thought of having someone, particularly someone in authority, such a headteacher or boss, referring to me by referencing my genitals. It's intrusive, invasive and completely unecessary when words such as girl and woman exist. We don't say, 'the person with the vagina over there' when asked who is here to see us next at work. We say 'the woman sitting by the window'.

Someone, and we don't know why, thinks it is MORE appropriate and LESS offensive for our children to refer to themselves and each other in a class about bodily changes, as 'people with vaginas' or 'people with penises' rather than boys or girls.

I don't personally feel that asking 11 year olds to refer to people by their body parts, particularly their genitals, is more appropriate or remotely necessary. And if I'm wrong and backward and need to get with the programme then I want to be shown the evidence that this is better, and appropriate and educationally sound.

So far there doesn't seem to be any.

OP I think you really need to escalate this. You explain your issues really well here. Complain again to the head of PSHE and copy in the Head and Chair of Governors. Say if you don't get a satisfactory response you will make a formal complaint. You also have the option of reporting them directly to Ofsted. There is lots of great guidance on how to be 'that parent' on the Safe Schools Alliance website.

Teachers such as myself really need parent power to help us challenge this in schools. Brooke are a go-to organisation for a lot of schools and they aren't fit for purpose.

@MsGoodenough

I don't think anyone is advocating never mentioning the word vagina, just that 'person with a vagina' shouldn't be used as a euphemism for girl/woman.

Quite. And sex ed based on the assumption that everyone knows what a vagina (and therefore whether they have one) would be completely inappropriate).

That Brook website is just mind-explodingly terrible.

Sometimes it feels to me as though there’s been some sort of mass hypnotising event and a few of us have somehow escaped and are frantically trying to wake everyone up to reality. It’s like something out of a dystopian novel. How did it come to this?

I'm so glad you're pushing back against this. Kids should have access to clear language to describe these confusing issues. Safe schools alliance are great, Genspect over advocacy support for parents and a school guidance that can be sent to the school genspect.org/guidance-for-schools/

I know @Zeugma - so so scarily bad and unscientific and unreferenced. And yet that is the website the children are given the links to, and that the lessons are based on....because it's "well respected" and "supports teachers."

Thanks @KlaraSun - I've found both those really useful for my letters.

@ValancyRedfern I was wondering about asking the DfE their opinion on Brook and their compliance with DfE guidance. I think DfE need to be clearer about which exeternal organisations they don't think schools should work with based on their inability to meet the criteria they specific "factual, evidence based" etc.

[quote Personwithrage]@ValancyRedfern I was wondering about asking the DfE their opinion on Brook and their compliance with DfE guidance. I think DfE need to be clearer about which exeternal organisations they don't think schools should work with based on their inability to meet the criteria they specific "factual, evidence based" etc.[/quote]
Have you seen the letter on ssa from dfe? It explains why they can’t check the organisations on their resources section. Which is why they say schools must check them.

I think it’s fair to complain to them after schools, but I don’t think they’d ever be in a position to check every free resource and ensure they comply with the updated guidance at all times. So they would probably always say it’s schools responsibility.

@BloodinGutters.

I do understand that and they could never possibly cover everything. But it just seems so wrong that these large and well known organisations can position themselves as advisors and sources of learning materials when they so clearly don't comply with the DfE guidance.

And it just seems so contradictory for DfE to set out their standards (which I agree with and am grateful for their clarity) but at the same time for them to link to and give as examples of resources, materials and organisations that do not meet those standards. SSA and Transgender Trend highlight issues with the PSHE Association for eg and yet they are linked to the in the DfE resources section.

Seems a bit unfair on schools really.

As are stonewall in the resources section, despite the guidance being updated to get them out of schools.

But I don’t think there would be any response past the one ssa got from them at the moment.

Reportedly the dfe are on the list expected to leave stonewall, was reportedly in telegraph recently. And reportedly the new education secretary is well aware of the problems with stonewall and gender ideology, so if that’s correct then when the guidance is due to be reviewed again (is 3yrly I think, so in a yr & half would be due) he’ll hopefully tighten this up more.

Many schools have been warned they may lose their 'outstanding status'. This and the u turn on core subjects, assessment for learning and other key areas mean that they'll happily find lots of fault in the schools and teachers who don't keep up with the merry-go-round of teaching trends.

This is a very serious but wider symptom of how Ofsted, which is meant to be a guiding hand, is failing schools and creating more problems than it solves.

@BelleOfTheProvince

From what parents post here repeatedly it sounds like even when parents show schools the guidance and the laws and all the ssa etc resources, plenty schools still turn round and tell parents they won’t fix it.

Without ofsted assessing them what other power do parents have to ensure schools follow dfe guidance and our countries laws?

The number of schools I’ve seen or read about with mixed sex toilets who refuse to follow building regulations act or equality act and safeguarding guidance is horrifying. The only option when they ignore parents complaints is ofsted.

Yes, I agree schools have been fairly useless.
But I do think that they have been misled and that there will soon be a u turn so people following in good faith will be punished whilst those who pushed it into schools in the first place get away Scot free.

@BelleOfTheProvince

Yes, I agree schools have been fairly useless. But I do think that they have been misled and that there will soon be a u turn so people following in good faith will be punished whilst those who pushed it into schools in the first place get away Scot free.

I don’t think the pshe guidance is misleading. It’s vague and somewhat contradictory, but if parents can read the part that says the dfe do not endorse resources and that schools must be responsible for checking them teachers can certainly read that.

I think it shows up how many teachers don’t read the guidance. I’ve found that true of a lot of guidance and the education act and schools own policies. I appreciate that for teachers or teaching assistants it isn’t as easy to be on top of this with everything they have to do, but I’ve found ht, academy seniors, dsl etc completely blind sighted that I know the policies/guidance/education act/equality laws etc, and that’s very scary that they are clueless on this. All of which we’re outstanding of good schools btw, including some that are named on everyone’s invited. So I’m inclined to think they need marked harshly. They may need more support put in place to go with that but not knowing dfe guidance isn’t something that can be overlooked, even without the glaring safeguarding fails it leads to.

From what I've read over the last couple of days - SSA, transgender trend and genspect, I would be so worried if I was working in a school right now. Having to go along with something so clearly shown to be against norms of safeguarding, disadvantaging children who already disadvantaged by using language, ideas and concepts that are confusing and intimidating because on the one hand you're being told to, but on the other hand it's being made clear that responsibility has to be taken somewhere.

@Personwithrage

From what I've read over the last couple of days - SSA, transgender trend and genspect, I would be so worried if I was working in a school right now. Having to go along with something so clearly shown to be against norms of safeguarding, disadvantaging children who already disadvantaged by using language, ideas and concepts that are confusing and intimidating because on the one hand you're being told to, but on the other hand it's being made clear that responsibility has to be taken somewhere.

They don’t have to go along with it though. They just have to point out it breeches dfe guidance. Or whichever law it breaks if it’s toilets etc. They don’t need to bring it up as their opinion, just point out guidance/laws/safeguarding duty.

@HipTightOnions
"And how do the “people with vaginas” know that they have vaginas?

This brainless PSHE teacher is relying on the fact that someone else has at some point told them that they are, indeed, girls."

Oh, this is wonderful. Thank you!

Yes @whatisheupto! I agree, really helped me to ponder this! Like the Brook website talking about "breasts if your dominant hormone is oestrogen," it all relies on someone having used plain language to lay the foundations of your understanding prior to this ideology sweeping in to confuse and bamboozle you.

Imagine just having to wonder which is your dominant hormone? And wondering whether that means you have breasts or chest?

I agree that schools have been misled. The 2018 Equality Act guidance

( statutory guidance that schools must use) prioritises gender reassignment over all the other characteristics! It gives specific links to GIREs and Stonewall - no other activist lobby groups are mentioned at all - the only other links are government websites.
So since 2018, schools have been getting dire advice in the key Equality At guidance, from inappropriate adult groups pushing queer theory ideology at schools, all enabled by the captured civil servants in the DfE.

It's the Denton's playbook in actions. And with all the unions also dancing to the queer theorist's tune, prioritising child safeguarding and the wellbeing of children is taking second place to the demands of these groups.

I think the wider culture of Ofsted and the DfE promoting unrealistic expectations has been a big factor in this. Due to the implementation of such policies, outsourcing culture has been positively encouraged. And leaving the school responsible for checking companies that are all but endorsed by the DfE and Ofsted is not fair, considering most teachers are now meant to lead a subject, often not even put of their nqt year. Teachers are not paid for this leadership, nor is it part of the teaching standards until you are on leadership pay scale, so it's no wonder it's not been given due care and attention.

I personally think it's a scandal this ideology has been allowed to take root in schools, but it is hard to challenge because doing so creates more work for teachers. Haven't been able to wrest it out of my partner's school entirely because of workload related push back and lack of alternative resources or schemes.

Even those that know something has been up, like my partner, are reluctant to go against stonewall because it's seen as a legitimate consulting agency, not a lobby group.
Ofsted and DfE behaviour have contributed to that lack of clarity.

I agree the DfE could be more proactive. They can't check every resource out there but they could check the big ones such as Brooke, PSHE Association and Jigsaw.

I am feeling pretty despairing at the ideological capture of PSHE teachers as I'm on some PSHE teacher FB groups and there was recently a thread where all the teachers apart from me agreed that SSA, Transgender Trend and Genspect were transphobic and should be ignored. Every group that talks sense is branded transphobic and then dismissed.

(I am ValancyRedfern BTW. Due to forgetting passwords I've got different accounts on different devices right now).

Oh no @msgoodenough. As I've mentioned them all in my correspondence, maybe I'll just be dismissed as a transphobe . So frustrating.

That's very depressing MsGoodenough It's why we need the DfE to start righting the wrongs that they've caused with their lack of due diligence.
It's also why parental challenge is so important. If teachers are in hock to activist groups rather than centring children's needs, then parents are going to have to stand up and insist that children come first and not the wishes of self interested adults.

It seems that the DfE need to come out with real leadership and clarity in this.

It would make a huge difference!