School not using "girl" and "boy"

[Personwithrage]

My year 7 DC had a session on puberty in RHSE yesterday. As part of this they labelled diagrams of "people with penises" and "people with vaginas" so as to "not make transgender people uncomfortable" as someone could be "born a boy but believe their personality makes them a girl".

I am so so cross.

I don't have a gender identity, absolutely and wholeheartedly reject regressive stereotypes and have brought DC up to challenge them and to believe they can do and be whoever they want to be. I have also always talked about biological reality and believe that whatever you do, say, wear or think you are still a boy or girl as defined by your biology.

Am I over reacting? Is it unreasonable and excluding to expect puberty lessons to refer to male and female, boy and girl? Is it not ok for my child to refer to themselves in terms they're comfortable with? Are there really lots of 11 year olds with gender dysphoria and a sense of gender identity such that this rings true?

@littlbrowndog

This is a good speech by Miriam cates summing up what should and should not be happening in schools

Don’t suppose there’s a transcript?

It was a good question Franca. With children it's a good idea never to assume knowledge and pre empt misconceptions.

A good teacher would do this.

The teacher in this case has assumed a hell of a lot prior knowledge.

Yes I think it’s in Hansard

I think people may be misunderstanding my point. I personally don't use euphemisms to describe body parts of functions. But some people do. If a child comes from a family which does, they could get to 11 and not know that they have a vagina or a penis. This means that sex ed which fails to make this clear, fails the child.

The idea that 'surely all girls know they have a vagina by 11' cannot be used as an argument for it being OK to fail to say that it is girls who have a vagina, not random 'people'. When you talk about people who have vaginas, the girls need to know that it them.

If as a society we allow this sort of situation to continue we fail our children.

I started my periods at 10 and was quite frankly in shock. My mum choose not to bombard me with an anatomy lesson but to reassure me and give me the practical knowledge I needed. Personally, I think that was the right approach. Anyway. The point is really, do we now need to educate girls that thry are vagina-havers in case they mis-understand viral health advise at school. And if so, is that a good thing? I think not personally. The word girl is a much clearer term than vagina haver.

@BelleOfTheProvince

From an educational point of view I would consider words like vagina at that age to be familiar but maybe not instantly recallable. Due to the length of time familiar with the term and how often it comes up. A bit like I'd expect all children to know triangle but maybe not scalene.

And yes, generally from a safeguarding point of view proper terms are preferred. However, most parents at least when children are younger use cuter terms like wo willy . There's a particular safeguarding issue around girls as there's a less universally understood term and a variety is used like boo boo, mini.
There have been serious abuse cases missed because of the use of such terms.

It’s not uncommon for abusers to use a term that’s easy to confuse with a gift they give the child.

So a mini mouse cuddly toy and the term mini for vagina.

So the girls tells the teacher her brother touched her mini and the teachers just assumes it’s the toy.

@littlbrowndog

Yes I think it’s in Hansard

??

That’s why milli hills book is really good.

So girls don’t get a shock. It’s a really good book for young girls who might be approaching getting their periods

And the word girl is the only word that should be used. Not vagina haver or whatever dehumanising term

It says it’s in Hansard from 5.58. Bloodingutters.

But can check for you

Yes, safeguarding children is like fighting a many headed hydra. Which is why no loophole, however unlikely it seems to us, should be discounted.

Sadly a lot of people who are supposed to keep children safe seem to have forgotten the basics.

hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2021-11-09/debates/829A71F8-C2BF-4333-A5AC-066C9DBDF98A/School-BasedCounsellingServices

And there are obviously lots of reasons why a year seven might not know vagina.
English as an additional language and additional learning needs for example.

Those children deserve to receive good education and safeguarding just as much as others.

@littlbrowndog

It says it’s in Hansard from 5.58. Bloodingutters.

But can check for you

I don’t know what that means

[quote littlbrowndog]hansard.parliament.uk/commons/2021-11-09/debates/829A71F8-C2BF-4333-A5AC-066C9DBDF98A/School-BasedCounsellingServices[/quote]
Ty

Well the TRA logic is that if you call people "girls" it includes all those who identify as girls (which may include some biological boys).
If you call people "girls" in the context of discussing the role of their vaginas, you are telling those who have a vagina but identify as boys that they are in fact girls, not boys. And you are telling those who have a penis but identify as a girl that they are not in fact a girl.
So it's about whether you're using "girl" to mean gender or sex.
It seems that there is no word for someone with a vagina that is acceptable to TRAs.

Do you have a copy of the diagrams you can post?

I don't - it was work completed in class and discussed at home. I asked whether the other things they had been discussing (wet dreams, periods, erections, orgasms) we're described in sex-specific terms but DC couldn't remember accurately but felt that the terms 'people with penises" "people with vaginas " were used instead.

Do you think it's ok to add into my letter that I am now concerned with how the school have segregated the DC for sports and changing? Is it on the basis of their biological sex or their gender identity?

@jellyfrizz

Knowing whether they are on a male or female development pathway is vitally important for children no matter what their gender identity is. They need to know which they are on to know how they should usually be developing and what to expect around puberty. They need clear unambiguous language to understand what their sex means for them in terms of contraception and pregnancy.

This. Although I wouldn't describe it as a 'development pathway', but biological sex.

@Fogormist

Well the TRA logic is that if you call people "girls" it includes all those who identify as girls (which may include some biological boys). If you call people "girls" in the context of discussing the role of their vaginas, you are telling those who have a vagina but identify as boys that they are in fact girls, not boys. And you are telling those who have a penis but identify as a girl that they are not in fact a girl. So it's about whether you're using "girl" to mean gender or sex. It seems that there is no word for someone with a vagina that is acceptable to TRAs.

It doesn’t matter what’s acceptable to them.

D if e guidance says kids need taught evidence based facts.

Safeguarding requires kids be able to name material reality.

Doesn’t matter what people think of that, schools must follow it.

If you use the word girl you might upset a girl who wishes they were a boy or vice versa

I'm at the point where I just think tough shit. We all have to hear things in life that make us uncomfortable. It's how we learn and grow.
Using the excuse of poor mental health to forcie everyone else to change THEIR language and beliefs is bullshit.

Maybe the government should take all the fucking money it throws at the likes of Stonewall and re allocate it to teen mental health. Gender identity ideology should NOT be being taught as fact and children shouldn't be told that a certain group are in some way special and must be prioritised in every situation because that is nonsens.

The words girl and boy relate to biology sex not regressive sex role stereotypes. This is fact. Just because a tiny minority claim otherwise it doesn't mean anyone else should have to go along with it.

@Whatsnewpussyhat

If you use the word girl you might upset a girl who wishes they were a boy or vice versa

I'm at the point where I just think tough shit. We all have to hear things in life that make us uncomfortable. It's how we learn and grow.
Using the excuse of poor mental health to forcie everyone else to change THEIR language and beliefs is bullshit.

Maybe the government should take all the fucking money it throws at the likes of Stonewall and re allocate it to teen mental health. Gender identity ideology should NOT be being taught as fact and children shouldn't be told that a certain group are in some way special and must be prioritised in every situation because that is nonsens.

The words girl and boy relate to biology sex not regressive sex role stereotypes. This is fact. Just because a tiny minority claim otherwise it doesn't mean anyone else should have to go along with it.

Exactly what I was trying to say (but you said it better). It is just not reasonable to change the whole basis of language and understanding of biological fact.

Also, the adult males who identify as women claim it is dehumanising to call them people with a penis as it's 'reducing them to their body parts', so why isn't it then dehumanising to refer to our entire sex class as people with vaginas?
They seem to have no fucking issue reducing females to their body parts.

I think the difficulty you will have op is that the guidance is too woolly ànd not specific enough. I'd expect the school to quote this in their defence:

Use ‘inclusive language’
In its teacher training module on respectful relationships, the DfE also states that when schools cover LGBT content, they should “ensure inclusive language is used, considering how individual pupils may relate to particular topics”.

*I

it goes on to say: “In this module ‘girls’ refers to those whose natal sex is female. Similarly, ‘boys’ refers to those whose natal sex is male. However, teachers should be aware of the individual needs of all pupils and use inclusive language where possible.”*

What you will have to get across is that the school are not being inclusive to those without a gender identity by using dehumanising terms. I'd expect the school to reach a compromise, so they might agree on using the words males and females (with the teacher at the beginning explaining females can include NB, trans boys and girls)

In respect to single sex provision your best bet is to keep it about your child. So ask is your child's rights to privàcy and dignity being upheld. The school won't engage with you talking about other pupils, but they do have to engage about things that effect your child.
Again, I'd get some pupil voice from your child about why they don't want mixed sex facilities and summarise this in your letter.

Thank you. I've sent it now so will wait to hear.

I added in my query re sex segregation as if they are not using girls and boys as I understand those terms then I'm confused as to what that means re oe lessons and changing. If they are using girls and boys as commonly understood, then why can't my child use those terms in a puberty lesson