School not using "girl" and "boy"

[Personwithrage]

My year 7 DC had a session on puberty in RHSE yesterday. As part of this they labelled diagrams of "people with penises" and "people with vaginas" so as to "not make transgender people uncomfortable" as someone could be "born a boy but believe their personality makes them a girl".

I am so so cross.

I don't have a gender identity, absolutely and wholeheartedly reject regressive stereotypes and have brought DC up to challenge them and to believe they can do and be whoever they want to be. I have also always talked about biological reality and believe that whatever you do, say, wear or think you are still a boy or girl as defined by your biology.

Am I over reacting? Is it unreasonable and excluding to expect puberty lessons to refer to male and female, boy and girl? Is it not ok for my child to refer to themselves in terms they're comfortable with? Are there really lots of 11 year olds with gender dysphoria and a sense of gender identity such that this rings true?

This is a good speech by Miriam cates summing up what should and should not be happening in schools

@Personwithrage

Thank you all for your help.

I'm so cross and disappointed I can't think straight.

Is there any decent reason why children shouldn't use the terms girl and boy? Am I failing to be reasonable and see a different pov here? What is wrong with those terms?

If you use the word girl you might upset a girl who wishes they were a boy or vice versa.

If you use the word girl you might upset a girl who wishes they were a boy or vice versa.

Whereas using another term wouldn't upset them? And why is their upset more significant than the OP's? (Rhetorical questions...)

Saw something the other day where someone was very upset that a changing room had been designated "AFAB only"...

The teaching should be evidence based..... there is no evidence that a gender identity exists outside a philosophical belief in a set of socially constructed stereotypes that not everyone subscribes to.

Girls are not taught football in PE?? Talk about reinforcing gender stereotypes right there. Ask them whether they believe that every single person with a vagina opts into the gender identity that values the sporting achievement of males at 1,693 times that of females.

(In 2019, Neymar received a salary of $44M from PSG which was slightly more than 1,693 female players in the leagues in France, Germany, England, the U.S., Sweden, Australia and Mexico combined

www.dailysabah.com/football/2017/11/27/psg-star-neymar-earns-more-than-female-players-of-top-7-european-leagues-combined)

By reinforcing these beliefs, they are condemning their students with vaginas to a future governed by stereotypes where they will not only be discouraged by social pressure from exploring non traditional careers, hobbies and activities, but they will also be conditioned to either accept structural inequities including lower pay, unequal access to share of voice and an inability to represent their own interests in places of power where decisions are made or face the alternative that if they seek to play football, be an engineer or speak out on their own behalf, that they are in fact male and should present as such, in accordance with an undefinable set of rules that includes binding their breasts, suppressing their reproductive cycles and taking life long hormones to alter their physical appearance.

Rarrraaaggghhh.. Good Luck BTW..... I hope you find someone sensible to talk to and that this craziness is quickly wiped clean and replaced with sensible discussions on the subject.

@Embroidery

Schools have been actively promoting trangenderism for about 10years. Youve only just noticed. Ive always disagreed with it but I know better than to say anything as I need my job. Stonewall posters (as in physical pieces of paper stuck on walls) are nothing less than propaganda. One says in big red letters, something like:

Are you sure
you're in the right
gender?
Ring us now and we'll support you.
Stonewall

Don't want this post to go unnoticed from Embroidery. Some schools are performing as useful idiots with their over involvement with these adult led groups desperate to target young children. No due diligence, no consideration about safeguarding or age appropriateness let alone thoughts as to what the school's role should be in pushing the demands of adults focused on sexual politics.

If the teaching staff genuinely believe that the words “boy” and “girl” are triggering and uncomfortable, one assumes that they replace them in all circumstances, not just RHSE lessons?
So, in school assembly it’s “Good morning vagina owners and penis havers”, is it?

They are not trying to get rid if the words or categories boy and girl. They are trying to sever the connection between girl/female and that type of body, boy/male and the other type of body. It is only triggering when referencing the body (so they think). They are trying to re-make the categories, not do away with them. They don't need to do away with 'hello girls and boys' to do that. Though they might have to add enbys!

I don't agree with it. Schools have no business remaking important categories like mam and woman. I hope your complaint gets somewhere. But that's what it's about.

Of course it's true that they depend on the children already knowing which one they are, because they've been brought up in a world where girl = young human female.

If you use the word girl you might upset a
girl who wishes they were a boy or vice versa.

I get that, but how is that different to everyone else being made to feel uncomfortable at defining themselves "a person with a vagina/penis"? Why is is a paramount importance that this is the thing they can't be upset about? In a school that sets children for maths, maybe those in the bottom set would rather not be defined as such? Some children were really upset at not getting picked for the play but everyone just expected them to cope and accept that. Why can't the same happen here when the words in use are not remotely loaded or contentious in general life?

I think there’d be an interesting issue for DfE to consider if there’s nothing to stop schools calling their pupils eg ‘Year 7’ or ‘students’ or whatever and not referring to them again as ‘girls’ or ‘boys’ or using other female or male terms for them anywhere outside of PSHE lessons, to which guidance has been applied. Or perhaps I’ve misunderstood?

Do all 11 year olds know if they have a vagina or a penis? Sorry if this is a silly thing to say but I'm just not certain I was totally clear on those words at 11. Don't most parents use words like willy or fanny? Especially for girls, vagina isn't totally relevant. Vulva being the external but would surely be a word most girls have heard over vagina? I can't really think of a time pre-11 where I would need to talk about my daughter having a vagina? Please correct me if wrong as my daughter is younger.

Franca some girls do start periods as young as 9 or 10

They do need to know what a vagina is

But why should we stop using these words???? I am a woman!! My daughter is a girl. One son is boy. The other one is a man. Yes, they are my family and I am their parent... but I am also their mother.

The correct terms are taught in year six, however, those in education know that something isn't 'learnt' until it's been consolidated several times.
So no, I wouldn't expect the terminology to be second nature to all students at that age.

If you use the word girl you might upset a girl who wishes they were a boy or vice versa.

True. But if you describe a boy as a person who has a penis and a girl as a person who has a vagina, you may upset others people for other reasons including the reinforcing of damaging stereotypes. We might all wish we were something else, but pretending things are as we want them to be is not the answer. I am overweight but I don't expect the category of overweight to be defined such that despite my BMI being 27, I am not in it. I can't identify as having a BMI of 21 and the concept of a boy as someone who has a penis and girl as someone who has a vagina is no less scientific.

It's not helpful to reduce these discussions to 'not upsetting people' as a lack of acknowledgement of incompatible needs and beliefs just means you are privileging one group of people to not upset at the expense of others. I think we need much more meaningful conversations than this.

*Franca some girls do start periods as young as 9 or 10

They do need to know what a vagina is*

They don't need to know the formal terms and the more complex issues of anatomy to manage a period. Many people will talk about period as 'blood coming out f your privates' or something like that. No mention of vagina needed. So no assumption that most 9/10/11 year old girls will know they have a vagina.

Privates🤷‍♀️

What’s wrong with the word vagina ?

Why wouldn’t you tell a girl what’s actually happening and why it’s happening

You got blood coming out of your privates. 🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️

She’s having a period not random blood coming out of her privates

www.wob.com/en-gb/books/milli-hill/my-period/9781526363374?gclid=Cj0KCQiA-K2MBhC-ARIsAMtLKRuxl65S1zY2A_uNZDoc2DWwbDMypzcSaTMCD_8kcF9zarMgWmn_ApwaAqfLEALw_wcB

This book is for girls 9 and over

The correct terms are taught in year six, however, those in education know that something isn't 'learnt' until it's been consolidated several times

Presumably they are taught in year 6 “girls have vaginas” not “people with vaginas have vaginas”.

So the Y7 PSHE lesson is utterly reliant on them understanding the connection from elsewhere.

@littlbrowndog

Privates🤷‍♀️

What’s wrong with the word vagina ?

Nothing whatsoever but that doesn't mean everyone has to choose to use that word when we have millions of other ways of describing things.

I see it as a question of reasonableness. It is true that some children now associate the words "girl" and "boy" with gender identity/other ideas of gender and gender expression, because they have been taught that these words do not relate to biological sex and that rather they relate to gender or a thing called gender identity. Children who have been taught that the words "boy" and "girl" refer to gender identity may well get upset if those words are used to refer to sex (assuming they have been taught that it is upsetting). I think that it is simply not reasonable to say that because some people hold these beliefs/reject the core meanings of these words, that we should stop using those words to refer to biological sex. I cannot see that it is reasonable on any analysis. These words (along with man and woman) are the correct words to describe the reproductive sexes in humans, are the only words available to describe the two sexes and are needed when teaching about biological sex or the sexed reality of humans. So while a school or teacher can sympathise with children being upset, it is not a reason to change the lesson, just a reason to support and be sensitive to the upset child (or, ideally, to try and prevent them from being upset by explaining that using the correct words to describe sex says nothing about individual concepts of gender identity, even while it is confusing that the words used for sex are the same as those now used to describe gender identity).

@littlbrowndog

Why wouldn’t you tell a girl what’s actually happening and why it’s happening

You got blood coming out of your privates. 🤦‍♀️🤦‍♀️

She’s having a period not random blood coming out of her privates

My point is that you can tell them what is happening without using the word vagina. You can also tell her what is happening without referencing changes in vaginal discharge through the month, hormone cycles and ovulation etc.

It's not a case of all info or nothing so within that some people will choose the word vagina and some won't.

It doesn't matter how much you sneer at others , there are still many valid ways to do this.

Hence many late primary school girls will not know they have a vagina.

Hence we need to use the word 'girl'.

From an educational point of view I would consider words like vagina at that age to be familiar but maybe not instantly recallable. Due to the length of time familiar with the term and how often it comes up.
A bit like I'd expect all children to know triangle but maybe not scalene.

And yes, generally from a safeguarding point of view proper terms are preferred. However, most parents at least when children are younger use cuter terms like wo willy . There's a particular safeguarding issue around girls as there's a less universally understood term and a variety is used like boo boo, mini.
There have been serious abuse cases missed because of the use of such terms.

Primary schools don’t have to cover gender identity at all.

Secondary schools have to cover it.

However, they must both still comply with the guidance on how they teach it.

Which means using the legal terms-gender reassignment- and teaching that SOME people believe this, but that it doesn’t change biological facts.

Safeguarding relies on children to name material reality. Biological sex is boy or girl. Teachers need to use medically factual language according to the guidance.

They must not teach born in the wrong body or suggest non compliance with gender stereotypes mean a child’s body or personality are wrong and need changing.

They must not use any material from any organisation that suggests this is the case. Including all the organisations listed in the d of e resources list- d of e are clear schools must check if these comply.

If schools were relying on the nhs or even a bloody dictionary as a resource it’s still schools responsibility to ensure they comply with guidance.

Challenge school. If head won’t correct it out a formal complaint in. Tell them beforehand and it’s likely they will do everything possible to fix it so you won’t put in a formal complaint as it stays on file for Ofsted to see. Ofsted have obviously updated their assessment criteria when d of e updated their guidance. After their peer on peer abuse investigation/report anything that impacts safeguarding is even more high priority than before. So schools should want to jump to fix this.

I mean not be pedantic but blood is coming out of your womb via your cervix and vagina? No? I'm just not sure that's how my mum described it to me or how I would choose to describe it to a 10 year old. And I do of course know that girls under 10 start menstruating. I'm not an idiot ffs.

@littlbrowndog

Privates🤷‍♀️

What’s wrong with the word vagina ?

This ^^

Children who are comfortable using accurate terms are much more likely to speak up about abuse.

All of the resources on teaching sex Ed to children with autism and similar disabilities reply on accurate factual language. Euphemisms of any sort are strongly advised against for this group, and there’s no way of knowing how many children won’t yet be diagnosed by year 6.

Stick to facts. Meets everyone’s needs.