Does anyone else feel that the tone has changed on this board?

[ViceLikeBlip]

This board has been incredibly important to me, especially when I felt like I was losing my mind because no one else seemed to see a problem with self ID, and everyone else seemed to believe TWAW (or, I now realise, everyone else was too scared to suggest they might not believe TWAW).

You guys helped me rationalise my thoughts, and realise I wasn't some awful transphobe, and I've been really grateful to be part of this community. And I really felt like I belonged: we were pro women's rights, not anti trans rights, and we didn't believe that all transwomen are dangerous perverts but rather we recognised that dangerous perverts do exist, and they will readily take advtange of any loophole that gives them access to women.

More than anything, you guys have been an absolute mine of information - facts, stats, latest developments, and you've pointed me in the direction of news articles and twitter rows that I never would have seen otherwise. I'm genuinely grateful for this.

But recently the mood seems to have shifted significantly. There seems to be a lot of open animosity and ridicule towards all things trans. The recent outcry about M&S letting some people put their pronouns on their name badges felt uncomfortably close to clamouring to have M&S "cancelled".

I guess I used to feel like this was a safe space where I was with like minded people, but now I don't think everyone on here can hand-on-heart maintain that they're not anti-trans anymore, and it makes me very upset to see this shift happening (and happening quickly).

I was reading a review of a play that harks back to Greek tragedy and it reminded me that the Kindly Ones was the euphemistic name for the Furies, who punished men for crimes against the natural order.

That would really do the TRAs and allies' heads in wouldn't it ‚ furious and kindly at the same time.

So if there's been a tone change, it's been due to the sea change off the board, giving more women the courage to speak up everywhere, and the resultant cats-bum-faces from those that aren't getting their way nearly all the time any more.

Agree - and women are becoming more direct about it and less afraid as a consequence.

I’m glad you like radblr! I think despite the bizarre formatting and crazy algorithms, Tumbkr at least has the virtue of being (as here) anonymous, so the threat of social vilification is less, and that allows young women to push back against it all (compared to other platforms). And they are not only discovering radical feminism with huge passion and appetite, they’re diverse and eloquent and have a wealth of experience themselves. It’s great. I think Radblr and FWR:S&G would get along. Sometimes I wish I could point them here to join us, but it might be too U.K.-centric for them I guess.

I know Floral and I agree that the situation has improved from couple of years ago, and it's due to the dogged tenacity of many women, public and private, quietly and loudly opposing this Ideology.

And for clarity for the non-meanies, this...... mobile.twitter.com/ForwomenScot/status/1458159343799439366 ...... THIS, is what the First Minister of Scotland called a non valid concern

What pisses me off is being called 'transphobic' by people for whom it just means 'unbeliever', and having gullible people think it means the equivalent of 'nazi', when I'm part of the group of people trying to stop a capitalist industry consuming children who are just exploring who they are in all innocence. They might grow up to be lesbian gay, they might not. Why they are not is in any way broken and needing to be fixed via body mods or lies about material reality.

I never cease to be amazed that in the face of this deception of children, coercion of lesbians, males in women's prisons, sports, hospital wards etc. it still just boils down, to some people, into 'Sure, that might be bad, but could you just say it in a nicer tone?'

Jaysus.

I defend my right to be called Cis, to be a subset of my own sex and to accept my being privileged, being a member of a historically abused category of 'people' in about every culture in the world. I simply did not realise that some 'women' would love to be as privileged as me.

@MiladyBerserko

I defend my right to be called Cis, to be a subset of my own sex and to accept my being privileged, being a member of a historically abused category of 'people' in about every culture in the world. I simply did not realise that some 'women' would love to be as privileged as me.

Eh not just historically abused.

It’s very very current for plenty of us privileged ciswomen.

But of course that’s to be expected, we identify with this so what do we expect?

There is a lot more hostility on this whole site to many more people.

I incline to a similar point of view, foxgoose.

It was put forward earlier that the board had lost moderate posters, but I think it is quite the reverse.

Trans activists have spent years demonising feminists as the big bad end-of-level boss, and telling each other that once the feminists were silenced, everything would be sorted. In all this, they lost sight of who feminists typically are; a group of women, often left-wing, who typically care very much about not being discriminatory to anyone. I recognise many names on this board from my years on MN.

They're the kind of women who marched to make same-sex relationships legal. They're the kind who marched against section 28, and objected to the stigmatisation of AIDS sufferers.

They're the kind of women who explained on threads why they thought Little Britain was transphobic and homophobic. They're the women who rally to threads to explain why accessible ramps for wheelchair users should be installed on buses. They know words like heteronormative and worry about diverse representation in cinema. They are compassionate, sympathetic women who would spend years bending over backwards not to let themselves stereotype people with gender dysphoria by the actions of trans activists.

These women are not the final end of level boss. No way, Jose.

What is happening now is quite simple. The wider public are finding out, and they are going to be somewhat coarser in their phrasing than feminists. If Sarah Jones at 23 City Road sees an exchange like this, she may not feel any obligation to be politically correct when she responds to such self-centredness.

Official twitter account for the President of the United States

Today, I issued a Presidential Memorandum to protect and expand access to reproductive health care. I am fully committed to protecting women’s health here at home and around the world.

Reply:

Hi President Biden! Thank you so much for doing this. I'm wondering if you could adjust your wording from "women's healthcare" to "healthcare for people who get pregnant and bleed". I am a (trans) woman, but don't need these services.
Thank you for your work!

twitter.com/elianasrubin/status/1354955908770500619?t=GDGiiVPSsPGFAl99H2WVeQ&s=19

I know BloodinGutters but avoiding the NA*ALT

I have just seen this quoted below when following a lead on this thread.

A Scottish Government spokesperson said: “Under the oversight of their clinical team a small number of young adults have been referred for chest reconstruction surgery at 17’

I consider that phrasing a perfect example of double-speak from 1984.

War is Peace Freedom is Slavery

Cutting off the Breasts of a Young Woman is Chest Reconstruction Surgery.

I consider it close to evil.

So OP my anger has ratcheted up several notches. Because I care about female mutilation by grown adults called “The Clinical Team” called “Surgeons”

(The Scottish Government wants to make this more readily available)

@Duckrace

There is a lot more hostility on this whole site to many more people.

That’s true.

I dislike people on principle.

It’s really just not good enough that human humans take priority when everyone knows that the bestest humans are the canine ones.

@FloralBunting

I’ve just been reading Twitter on the Lush debacle; and of course the whole thing is full of adult people saying “wtf?” and teenagers replying that anyone who objects to this wonderful, progressive campaign is against bodily autonomy, identity, young people’s identity, self determination and relief of “dysphoria” and so on.

And I’m thinking, well, they’re effectively saying: “I like doing this for psychological reasons, so I think confused 13 year old girls should also be able to damage themselves because Bodily Autonomy - even if it causes yet more dysphoria, and they wake up at 22 devastated that their breasts are ruined and in great psychological pain, but that’s their problem, suckers, so why are you interfering old harridans even bovvered”?

And this is supposed to be the epitome of “being kind”. And the teenagers arguing this probably know they’re spouting nonsense in the same way that they do when they’re arguing with mum about being allowed to get a nose piercing; but grown adults are also backing up the idea that allowing children to potentially make life-ruining mistakes or even just to live in extreme emotional distress is “kind”. “Sympathetic”. “The right side of history”. Despite the fact that it has very strong undertones of “if I/other people/older trans women/trans men have suffered, then these girls should as well.”

What none of them ever call for is better therapeutic support for distressed young women, to address and cure the actual “dysphoria”, rather than “treat” it by doing things that are medically harmful and also don’t eradicate it in any way.

I think Radblr and FWR:S&G would get along.

I think there's a few of us on both

Certainly I've seen something interesting shared here and gone to share it there and someone's got in ahead of me - so whoever you are, keep up the good work

@ScrollingLeaves

I have just seen this quoted below when following a lead on this thread.

A Scottish Government spokesperson said: “Under the oversight of their clinical team a small number of young adults have been referred for chest reconstruction surgery at 17’

I consider that phrasing a perfect example of double-speak from 1984.

War is Peace Freedom is Slavery

Cutting off the Breasts of a Young Woman is Chest Reconstruction Surgery.

I consider it close to evil.

So OP my anger has ratcheted up several notches. Because I care about female mutilation by grown adults called “The Clinical Team” called “Surgeons”

(The Scottish Government wants to make this more readily available)

JFC.

JFC.

'NHS Scotland has referred 51 kids for breast removal surgery since 2015. Now the govt is considering making that even easier by allowing self-ID without parental consent for children.'

mobile.twitter.com/ForwomenScot/status/1458159343799439366

@Udouhun

I am not anti any human but I am anti trans ideology. I feel it's negative not just for women but for young people too. How are they getting the idea that their body is wrong and why do they think there's something wrong with just being gay? I know that each individual case is complicated but for me that's essentially what it boils down to. I find the idea of children taking puberty blockers horrifying. I do rankle a little at being told I need to be kind though. I feel that trying to defend people from trans ideology is being kind. No one can demand kindness though. As for the tone of the board, this is not a safe space, it's a public opinion board. I would argue there's no such thing as a safe space anywhere in this world. People can come on and comment as they choose. That's what I like about mumsnet.

I am not anti any human but I am anti gay ideology

How are they getting the idea that man + woman is wrong and why do they think there's something wrong with just being straight?

I feel it's negative... for young people

Section 28 called, it wants its talking points back.

It's one thing being concerned about elements of trans people's rights and how they intersect with the rights of others, there's another altogether to say you're against the concept of transness. If you said the same about gayness, you'd quite rightly be called a homophobe.

You proved OP's original point perfectly - so many posts on here now are no longer 'here are specific concerns' and now just thinly-veiled (or not veiled at all, in your case, which is fun) 'I just don't LIKE or UNDERSTAND them and I think it's WEIRD'.

(Also - the absolute hypocrisy of multiple people on this thread arguing that there's no such thing as a safe space and nobody's entitled to one while also arguing that the evil transes are taking safe spaces away... pick a lane!)

Despite the fact that it has very strong undertones of “if I/other people/older trans women/trans men have suffered, then these girls should as well.”

I'm really not sure that's it though. There seem to be very distinct differences in the various age groups. So with transmen, the older ones may have previously identified as butch lesbians, whereas the 14 year old ones are asexual or autistic or victims of CSA, or are straight and identify as "gay transmen" because of too much Yaoi.
I haven't heard of fortysomething transmen calling for top surgery for 14 year old girls, that call always seems to come from "allies".

And the "I suffered so let's make sure these children don't" from men with The Love That Shall Not Speak its Name (For Fear of Narcissistic Rage) is part of making up a dysphoric childhood that never existed, and in those cases children are used as human shields.

Hi President Biden! Thank you so much for doing this. I'm wondering if you could adjust your wording from "women's healthcare" to "healthcare for people who get pregnant and bleed". I am a (trans) woman, but don't need these services

Basically all ive got to this is

FUCK OFF

(Im lying…..ive got lots and lots and lots more)

Gosh, when you change the words someone wrote, it's almost like the meaning completely changes. Amazing. And just the same as putting words in someone's mouth. So clever!

there's another altogether to say you're against the concept of transness. If you said the same about gayness, you'd quite rightly be called a homophobe

It's not the same though is it. Transitioning causes physical harm to children. Brittle bones, heart failure, potential early death. And there's no evidence to suggest transitioning actually helps many children in the long term. Its not transphobic to be worried about the harm that gender ideology causes women, and children.
Being gay doesn't impact on other people's rights. And it doesn't impact on the individual physically. A pretty poor comparison imo.

Also - the absolute hypocrisy of multiple people on this thread arguing that there's no such thing as a safe space and nobody's entitled to one while also arguing that the evil transes are taking safe spaces away... pick a lane!)

I am sorry but this doesn't make sense. Who on this board said nobody's entitled to safe places? Are you talking about male people wanting access to female only spaces or females wanting single sex spaces? Female single sex spaces for vulnerable women are considered necessary by everyone on this board. Are you perhaps talking about safe places for males who identify as women. In which case the women on this board are firm advocates of third spaces.

@ArabellaScott

Gosh, when you change the words someone wrote, it's almost like the meaning completely changes. Amazing. And just the same as putting words in someone's mouth. So clever!

The irony of them saying there is nothing wrong in being gay and having their words twisted to say they are ‘anti gay’ is….

Nah i got nothing

Shitty thing to do

Scarpa Flawed [Logic]

Do you genuinely not understand the difference between a 'safe space' online in terms of discussions being dictated in order that feelings aren't hurt, and an actual, physical 'safe space' where women who are vulnerable, undressed or needing a single sex space for a variety of reasons have a safe space to do so? Really?

The extraordinary homophobia of gender ideology re-defining homosexuality as same sex attraction and not its actual (legally protected) definition which is same sex attraction means you are a massive hypocrite.

@ArabellaScott

Gosh, when you change the words someone wrote, it's almost like the meaning completely changes. Amazing. And just the same as putting words in someone's mouth. So clever!

I've never seen any group so crushingly awful at analogies and metaphor.