MS are handing out pronoun badges to their staff

[PostingForTheFirstTime]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10173649/M-S-diversity-managers-staff-pronoun-badges-customers-know-address-them.html

I will be emailing the appropriate departments advising them that gender ideology is still a hot political topic; its decision to allow men to use women's changing rooms made me so uncomfortable that I will not shop for clothes in their stores any more, but its decision to push a political stance with which I fundamentally disagree means I won't be using them at all from now on.

So sad, because I love their trousers and their Christmas party foods.

@TalkingtoLangClegintheDark have you worked in retail? You seem to think I am making it up Im really not.

It may be an opportune moment to share this thread:

archive.md/bBshL

@TalkingtoLangClegintheDark, if a man was presenting as a women the likelihood they would have been challenged by a shop assistant (if they tried to access female changing rooms) in the past is very low. Shop assistants are abused a lot and managment rarely back them up so they usually go for the line of least resistance.
If they were obviously male then yes they would have been challenged.

I reallly dont care what someones badge states. If i am not talking to them face to face, i will use whatever words i like, therefore if someone looks male and sounds male i will use he/him. I will not do mental gymnastics in private conversations.

@Ohmygodyesthatsit

They spunked in the male changing rooms as many of the assistants were female in the male area. Trust me I worked in retail for years men are grim.

You can’t see the difference between them “spunking” in their own, male, changing rooms, and in the women’s ones?

I mean, obviously it’s truly grim for the staff in either scenario, especially female staff, and I'm sorry you had to deal with that, but there’s a huge added layer of violation when it’s the women’s changing rooms, and the greater (transgressive) thrill = greater incentive to do it. And obviously then the women using the space who have to deal with it. Very different scenario.

When did i say i didnt think it was worse? Or couldn't see a difference? My point was men are grim they will take any opportunity to be grim its not a new thing done only by trans women sorry if that wasnt clear.

[quote Ohmygodyesthatsit]@TalkingtoLangClegintheDark, if a man was presenting as a women the likelihood they would have been challenged by a shop assistant (if they tried to access female changing rooms) in the past is very low. Shop assistants are abused a lot and managment rarely back them up so they usually go for the line of least resistance.
If they were obviously male then yes they would have been challenged.[/quote]
That’s interesting to know, and I can believe that, the same way staff are told not to challenge shoplifters these days.

But it’s still different now. Those days, before the trans thing had really exploded, those men who dressed in women’s clothes really were a tiny minority. And probably fewer of them were doing it for the sexual thrill. (Although that’s obviously debatable.) So perhaps less likely to be using the experience as a sexual opportunity and more as genuinely trying on clothes to buy.

The other thing is that of course with places like M&S operating de facto self ID/mixed sex changing rooms, a man can look entirely male and still not be challenged these days. And of course there are so many MORE men who identify as trans. The increase in numbers alone is a game changer.

Tbh I think this has got away from me. I am not defending trans rights, I don't agree with pronoun badges, I don't agree with men in womens spaces, I am gc the point I am making is while the focus is constantly on M&S it is allowing other retailers to do the same unchallenged.

@Ohmygodyesthatsit

When did i say i didnt think it was worse? Or couldn't see a difference? My point was men are grim they will take any opportunity to be grim its not a new thing done only by trans women sorry if that wasnt clear.

When did you say you did think it was worse? Or that you could see a difference?

You didn’t. I’m not a bloody mind reader.

@Ohmygodyesthatsit

Tbh I think this has got away from me. I am not defending trans rights, I don't agree with pronoun badges, I don't agree with men in womens spaces, I am gc the point I am making is while the focus is constantly on M&S it is allowing other retailers to do the same unchallenged.

Fair enough. Point taken.

@TalkingtoLangClegintheDark being rude is not helpful. No need to swear at me I have been very polite.

[quote Ohmygodyesthatsit]@VelvetChairGirl this is my point google waitrose just as bad as m&s by constantly focusing just on m&s people feel they have done their bit by boycotting.[/quote]
well at least they dont have unisex changing rooms, altho maybe people should buy clothing more and take it back because its the wrong size and cite I aint using unisex changing rooms.

in the end all any of them care about is money, let them all shoot themselves in the feet, its mostly women who shop and as for M&S I dont think I have seen a single member of staff in there who wasnt a woman over 50. who the hell do they think they are? they dont cater to the kinds of people who are TRAs, students dont go M&S for their pot noodles.

When I go shopping I don't want to be evangelised to by any belief system. I also do not expect the shop to load me up with responsibility for remembering anything about their staff.

@Lovelyricepudding

When I go shopping I don't want to be evangelised to by any belief system. I also do not expect the shop to load me up with responsibility for remembering anything about their staff.

And, as we've seen from a poster on this very thread, people are only too willing to berate you for getting it wrong, or even trying to avoid it altogether.

There will absolutely be those who will make a fuss and complain about being victimised if you don't support the ideology.

It happens all the time. It happens on this site.

And for those wondering why Marks & Spencer's is coming in for the attention, it's partly because this has just happened.

But when John Lewis decided to make their changing rooms mixed sex, they were the subject of many threads and protests. It's not just Marks & Spencers.

But Marks are known as the place for buying pants and bras. It's a very specific sort of violation.

I mean, good lord, getting your bra fitted, by a company who thinks that your rights to privacy can be violated, left right and centre, is not acceptable.

So short-sighted people have to peer at people's chests to see what they are.

M&s and john lewis? Bastions of the middle class we need Asda argos etc to hear the cry as well.

[quote SuperDup3r]@Datun come back to the thread when you see more than 1 M&S staff member wearing this badge.

I'd love to debate this all day but, for the 3rd time, it's really not happening as this thread would have you believe [/quote]
Well I dunno about datun but I haven't been in any m and s for about two years. I'm not going to either even if they suddenly change the mixed sex changing rooms to single sex. So I wont see the badges, one or many.
I'm also partially sighted so even if I see a badge with pronouns on I'm more likely to take note of the name as that's more important and I dont want to stare too long at anyones chest area for really obvious reasons.

[quote PostingForTheFirstTime]The email address is hard to find

www.marksandspencer.com/MSContactUsCmd?storeId=10151&langId=-24&catalogId=10051&categoryId=282501&byEmail=9[/quote]
Thanks for this. I just sent feedback.

M&S 'diversity managers' give staff pronoun badges so that customers know how to address them

I have never in my life addressed anyone is "he" "him" or "his". Indeed, I never address anyone by any gendered pronoun.

Does anyone address a person as anything other than "you"? as in "Excuse me, can you tell me where I can find the duvet covers?"

I can't think it would be sensible to say "Excuse me, can he (or his, or him, or she, or her, or hers, or they, or them, or theirs, or zie... I lose patience at this point, forgive me, please just consider that I have included all three hundred or however many it now is times three) tell me where I can find the duvet covers?" Who would "he (etc)" be? Some other member of staff, presumably, since the one I am talking to would be "you".

I have been avoiding using my own pronouns on some boards for many years in order also to avoid the sexist nitwits who infest them and make assumptions based on people's sex. It's really quite easy to do.

Two things which do occur to me, though.

One is that "being kind" is in general a little patronising, and very often has within it the implication of pitying. So being kind to someone because they are trans is in effect pitying them, poor things.

The other is that if people are made to feel uncomfortable in case they get someone's pronouns wrong, they will probably take the easy way out and simply not speak to that person at all. This will lead people who are by instinct kind to be unkind by not saying a friendly "hello" or having a little chat about incosequentialities, in case that gets them into trouble. And that is a shame, and reduces the sum total of human happiness by just a little for both the not-talker and the not-talked-to.

QUOTE Does anyone address a person as anything other than "you"? as in "Excuse me, can you tell me where I can find the duvet covers?"

YANBU in fact you could easily avoid the 'you' altogether and just say: 'Excuse me, where can I find the duvet covers?'

That too. But I'm sure that would be transphobic....

Does anyone address a person as anything other than "you"? as in "Excuse me, can you tell me where I can find the duvet covers?"

It’s bizarre, isn’t it.

In what universe would we be going into the shop and saying to one member of staff, excuse me, see your colleague over there, could you ask her/him/they to help me, please? I mean…

But Marks are known as the place for buying pants and bras. It's a very specific sort of violation.

I mean, good lord, getting your bra fitted, by a company who thinks that your rights to privacy can be violated, left right and centre, is not acceptable.

Indeed, Datun.

Especially when it’s clear management know, and have known for years, that (some) male people are wont to go into changing rooms and masturbate. That they have happily done this since forever in male changing rooms staffed by female shop assistants, because of the female assistants. Using the female assistants as unwitting, unwilling participants and props in their fantasy/fetish. Service humans, as always.

And it shouldn’t need spelling out to anyone at all how much more happily they’ll be doing this given they’re now allowed free access to the women’s changing rooms, not only staffed by, but used by women.

Grim doesn’t begin to cover it.

And it shouldn’t need spelling out to anyone at all how much more happily they’ll be doing this given they’re now allowed free access to the women’s changing rooms, not only staffed by, but used by women.

This.

They're bloody going out of their way to let it happen. And, of course, women can't bloody object to a man in there now. Look what happens on threads like this when people do object.

Frothing, rude, silly.

But what really gets my goat is they are hiding behind not making it public knowledge. Because they think that the women it affects is minimal. And by minimal I mean minimal to their bottom line.

But they have given carte blanche to any man to go in and feel highly confident he can make women and girls feel very uncomfortable with just a raised eyebrow.