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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

#CisIsNotASlur trending on Twitter

335 replies

Slythermum · 30/10/2021 14:52

I'm assuming through the garbled wordfuckery I'm seeing on twitter that this is people who don't understand language who are using that this is in response to:

a) The BBC article about Lesbians
b) Women objecting to the word "cis"
c) Shut up women
d) Dinosaurs
e) Shut up Lesbians
f) fannies

Meanwhile, my daughter has said girls in her class are saying "down with the cis bus" "cis people are evil", "cis should die" etc

OP posts:
Awiltu · 31/10/2021 09:38

The word “woman” has been used as a biological sex label ever since its earliest form appeared in Old English (wifman, ‘wif’ = female + ‘man’ = human being).

Gender ideologists are now trying to co-opt the word to label a social and cultural role, instead of than one half of the sex binary.

My understanding from the posts of Millicispud and others who believe in gender identity is that when “woman” is used as a gender label, what is really meant is:
Woman = anyone who is “allowed” to do things that a biological female is socially and culturally permitted or expected to do.

This often involves “opting in”, e.g. performing femininity, entering single-sex female spaces,. However it can also involve “opting out”, e.g. being exempt from fulfilling masculine stereotypes or social roles, being excluded from association with negative male behaviours such as male violence.

I suspect that when Millicispud and Co. have difficulty articulating exactly what a gender identity is, it’s because they are struggling to explain (or perhaps don’t want to say out loud) that it is a deep-seated and overwhelming psychological desire to have access to something that others have. Which goes some way towards explaining the rage and frustration when this is thwarted. "Woman" gender identity isn’t “I am”, it’s “I want what she’s having”.

waterlego · 31/10/2021 09:43

I'd understand gender a lot more if it was, generally, masculinity and femininity. But it has been insisted that that's nothing to do with it.

Yes, absolutely @MonsignorMirth. ‘Gender’ was originally a linguistics term, wasn’t it? And in that context, there are usually three options: masculine, feminine and neutral.

I can understand gender being used for humans in that framework. That would make sense because a man could have a feminine gender; ie a male person who behaves/dresses in a ‘feminine’ way. And there would be nothing wrong with that at all. Plenty of men are ‘feminine’, plenty of women are ‘masculine’. Obviously those words are derived from ‘male’ and ‘female’ but since they refer to behaviours/modes of dress/interests, they do not need to be married to sex.

But as you say, the gender cultists tell us that’s not what gender is. But just won’t tell us what it actually is.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 31/10/2021 09:45

Trans women are women because thats simply what they are mentally, personally and culturally.

In what sense? What's the difference between an MTF trans person and a man?

waterlego · 31/10/2021 09:51

it is a deep-seated and overwhelming psychological desire to have access to something that others have. Which goes some way towards explaining the rage and frustration when this is thwarted. "Woman" gender identity isn’t “I am”, it’s “I want what she’s having”.

Absolutely. And many women find it rather offensive when one aspect of what is coveted is our oppression.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 31/10/2021 09:53

What this thread tells me is that I'm beginning to think we're going to win.

YY. It's all such nonsensical special pleading, and if genderists don't come up with some coherent arguments then society is eventually going to come out the other side. With damage done, and probably zero lessons learned.

prudencepuffin · 31/10/2021 10:01

Womanly essence sounds to me like a kind of bath oil.
I have no idea what it is and I`m pretty sure it doesnt exist. Its impossible to think rationally and embrace genderism.

Flowerpotsnake · 31/10/2021 10:27

Something that always strikes me with this sort of discussion is that when someone tries to define contemporary use of the word gender ie. it’s not sex, it’s not stereotypes, it’s how you choose to express yourself- it becomes apparent to me that gender is superficial, trivial, and in no way justifies making sweeping changes to language, law or medicine. If being trans doesn’t require dysphoria or for the individual to take a medical pathway in order to be trans, then not only does that make gender as unimportant as what hobbies you have or what music you like, it also suggests that only those carefully screened for genuine, crippling dysphoria should receive any medical treatment for it, and the the treatment should also include coming to terms with their sex in order to help them cope with day to day life. It certainly doesn’t put forwards a case for forcing single sex spaces to become mixed or for self ID.
I don’t understand how enthusiastic genderists are incapable of seeing how the more they explain it on their terms, the less important it looks.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 31/10/2021 10:33

I don’t understand how enthusiastic genderists are incapable of seeing how the more they explain it on their terms, the less important it looks.

And the more narcissistic and selfish.

NotBadConsidering · 31/10/2021 10:36

Yes. The waffle and nonsense that adults prattle along with on threads like this would be just fine to be left to stand on its own as an example of the illogical position, if it wasn’t being used as justification for the medicalisation of children leaving them with irrevocable harm from hormonal treatments.

The same people like @Millicispud failing to explain gender are also saying that children whose gender is different should be medically affirmed. I stand by my claim that this is the medical scandal of our time.

seventyfits · 31/10/2021 10:51

@TurquoiseBaubles

"To be without a gender identity is to be "agender", the overwhelming majority of humanity is cis." - ok then, what does cis mean?
What is the word for not believing that gender identity exists? I don't mean not having one, just that it isn't a thing? To be 'agender' you have to first buy into a belief system that sees gender identity as existing, and then decide that you personally don't have one.

Using the prefix 'cis' also involves adopting the belief system that says we have innate gender identities, because it denotes that your gender ID is the same as your 'sex assigned at birth'. I don't believe in innate gender identity, I don't believe that sex is 'assigned' at birth, and I don't believe that what I call 'women' are actually a subset of the category 'women', which subscribers to gender ideology believe includes natal men (transwomen) and natal women ('ciswomen').

So 'woman' describes very nicely both what I am and what my belief system is about gender. 'Cis' is imposing someone else's belief system on me, the same as if you told me I had to start referring to my inner feelings as my 'soul' or describing my hopes as 'prayers'.

Wildfart · 31/10/2021 10:58

@NotBadConsidering

Yes. The waffle and nonsense that adults prattle along with on threads like this would be just fine to be left to stand on its own as an example of the illogical position, if it wasn’t being used as justification for the medicalisation of children leaving them with irrevocable harm from hormonal treatments.

The same people like @Millicispud failing to explain gender are also saying that children whose gender is different should be medically affirmed. I stand by my claim that this is the medical scandal of our time.

Millicispud did explain they had a sibling on the gender pathway from the age of 5.
LigandBrigand · 31/10/2021 11:16

‘Feelings’. ‘Knowing’. Mental health.

Let’s just mention the word delusion; having a belief (usually related to one’s self) in something that is demonstrably and objectively false.

The Cleveland Clinic also has this to say about delusional disorder;

“Delusional disorder, previously called paranoid disorder, is a type of serious mental illness — called a “psychosis”— in which a person cannot tell what is real from what is imagined. The main feature of this disorder is the presence of delusions, which are unshakable beliefs in something untrue. People with delusional disorder experience non-bizarre delusions, which involve situations that could occur in real life, such as being followed, poisoned, deceived, conspired against, or loved from a distance. These delusions usually involve the misinterpretation of perceptions or experiences. In reality, however, the situations are either not true at all or highly exaggerated.

People with delusional disorder often can continue to socialize and function quite normally, apart from the subject of their delusion, and generally do not behave in an obviously odd or bizarre manner. This is unlike people with other psychotic disorders, who also might have delusions as a symptom of their disorder. In some cases, however, people with delusional disorder might become so preoccupied with their delusions that their lives are disrupted.”

I think it is really important that more people recognise that people can have delusions but do not necessarily appear to be stereotypically mentally unwell or ‘crazy’ in all aspects of their life. They might be very logical about accounting for example but still hold a delusional belief about something else.

Of course some one who sincerely but delusionally believes they are Elvis might start dressing like Elvis, so it would become obvious in person.

Problems for the delusional person and other people comes where the delusion intersects with or crashes against, real life.

Interesting to talk about mental illness that involves delusions isn’t it.

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 31/10/2021 11:17

I don't need a descriptor to state I'm not trans. Just like I don't need one to state I'm not a pelican.

Thanks, EishetChayil — this is the answer I’ll be giving in future!

I may vary the last word for variety, if I have to point this out quite often.

Datun · 31/10/2021 11:40

Also calling a woman a cis woman is to make a distinction between her and a transwoman. A male. Who on earth thinks that women will put up with being defined always in reference to a male?

buckeejit · 31/10/2021 11:45

@Wildfart what a fun quiz! Even with utterly shit questions with unreasonable & senseless options, it turns out I'm either agender, female, bigender, male or pangender. Huzzah, what a glorious time!

It's all just waffle but I am boosted by the recent changes-Nolan, the BBC piece on lesbians being coerced & Margaret Atwood deviating. It feels like there's a definite shift & the horizon is hopeful

ViceLikeBlip · 31/10/2021 12:01

"Woman" gender identity isn’t “I am”, it’s “I want what she’s having”

I've always felt this very keenly, and I'm still not 100% certain that it isn't a prejudice that I should be addressing. I am in almost all ways "non gender conforming" according to many current social gender norms. I have more in common with some men than I do with many women. And yet, being a woman is incredibly important and special to me, and a huge part of my identity. Quite aside from the very real and sensible arguments for women's rights and women's safety, which really are the main issues here, I just don't want to share my identity. If a man is able to snap his fingers and declare himself a woman, that leaves me feeling completely unmoored, and I don't like it. And if I'm being completely honest with myself, I think this might actually be a bit transphobic of me.

LigandBrigand · 31/10/2021 12:29

@ViceLikeBlip

"Woman" gender identity isn’t “I am”, it’s “I want what she’s having”

I've always felt this very keenly, and I'm still not 100% certain that it isn't a prejudice that I should be addressing. I am in almost all ways "non gender conforming" according to many current social gender norms. I have more in common with some men than I do with many women. And yet, being a woman is incredibly important and special to me, and a huge part of my identity. Quite aside from the very real and sensible arguments for women's rights and women's safety, which really are the main issues here, I just don't want to share my identity. If a man is able to snap his fingers and declare himself a woman, that leaves me feeling completely unmoored, and I don't like it. And if I'm being completely honest with myself, I think this might actually be a bit transphobic of me.

Of course it feels ‘unmooring’ if your objective reality is taken and reversed to mean something opposite but without any scientific or logical reasoning. It’s gaslighting in the open.

The rise of scientific and objective, logical reasoning has been to the benefit of women - unlike men we cannot rely on physical strength to win our battles.

You should be able to enjoy your reality of being a woman and it makes complete sense that that logical and material reality grounds your sense of self and place in the world. That is not transphobia.

It makes no sense that a male can think he is a woman, an adult human female, and demand that everyone else agree.

firsttimedad79 · 31/10/2021 12:33

Hi,

I know it's not often the best place for a bloke to post on this board but I have read a lot on here with interest.

I don't understand what cis is?

As far as I understand there are:

Men
Women
Trans men
Trans women.

Or am I wrong here?

waterlego · 31/10/2021 12:42

@firsttimedad79

Some people believe ‘cis’ is needed to modify the words ‘woman’ or ‘man’. This is because they believe that there is more than one way to be a woman/man. So they believe that there are ‘cis women’ (who are female) and ‘trans women’ (who are male).

Most of us on this board don’t share that belief. Many of us are happy to use the word ‘transwoman’ to describe a male human who wishes he was female/sees himself as female. But we reject the term ‘cis’ to describe ourselves. We are women.

waterlego · 31/10/2021 12:42

So no, you aren’t wrong! (In my opinion).

titchy · 31/10/2021 12:44

Your understanding is correct.

Cis is a pejorative term that attempt to redefine the meaning of the word 'women' as having two subsets - 'cis' and 'trans' women. As opposed to those two groups being the exact opposite in real life.

Awiltu · 31/10/2021 12:45

I'm still not 100% certain that it isn't a prejudice that I should be addressing.

I think one very good reason to think this isn't a prejudice is because gender ideologues never want the whole "woman" identity, lock, stock and barrel. They want to cherry-pick parts of "being a woman", like feminine clothes and appearance, a submissive role under very specific circumstances, entry to female-only spaces, female body configuration and physiology related to reproduction. I've never seen a gender ideologue suggest that lower pay, lower pensions, default responsibility for caring roles, being talked over in meetings or passed over for promotion are desirable parts of "womanhood".

There is a very clear common theme to the parts of "woman gender identity" that are coveted, and this theme relates to a fictionalised, filtered version of what it is to be a woman. I think it is understandable that this makes many adult human females, who can't just cherry-pick the "rewarding" bits of womanhood, uncomfortable.

nevernomore · 31/10/2021 13:04

@firsttimedad79

Hi,

I know it's not often the best place for a bloke to post on this board but I have read a lot on here with interest.

I don't understand what cis is?

As far as I understand there are:

Men
Women
Trans men
Trans women.

Or am I wrong here?

I was at LGBT training in Scotland a few years ago and when I asked the Stonewall facilitator what cis was - I had never heard it before - I was told that cis is when your gender identity matches your sex.
GC feminists object to it as they reject the idea of gender as a cultural creation which restricts men and women to stereotypes based on their sex. It also makes (cis) women a subset of women, which they also object to.

I was told on the training to use the terms that people want to describe themselves. This does not appear to be the case with cis which women are told to accept.

GrumpyPanda · 31/10/2021 13:05

@Awiltu

I'm still not 100% certain that it isn't a prejudice that I should be addressing.

I think one very good reason to think this isn't a prejudice is because gender ideologues never want the whole "woman" identity, lock, stock and barrel. They want to cherry-pick parts of "being a woman", like feminine clothes and appearance, a submissive role under very specific circumstances, entry to female-only spaces, female body configuration and physiology related to reproduction. I've never seen a gender ideologue suggest that lower pay, lower pensions, default responsibility for caring roles, being talked over in meetings or passed over for promotion are desirable parts of "womanhood".

There is a very clear common theme to the parts of "woman gender identity" that are coveted, and this theme relates to a fictionalised, filtered version of what it is to be a woman. I think it is understandable that this makes many adult human females, who can't just cherry-pick the "rewarding" bits of womanhood, uncomfortable.

FWIW I have seen an article some time ago suggesting imposter syndrome as a problem extending to transwomen (rather than transmen, which would seem much more probable considering their socialization). Okay...
CatherinaJTV · 31/10/2021 13:07

Catherina if you believe that TWAW, why do you need the cis descriptor to identify yourself as other due to your masculine presentation?

I don't "present" as masculine at all, wardrobe is all full with Boden clothes. In online discussions I have been asked

"do you identify as a woman"

Now the most unambiguous way to answer that is to say "I am a cis woman", because a trans woman would also say "I am a woman".

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