BBC responds to backlash to article about lesbians being pressured into sex by some trans women

[FindTheTruth]

BBC spokesperson said: “The article looks at a complex subject from different perspectives and acknowledges it is difficult to assess the extent of the issue.

“It includes testimony from a range of different sources and provides appropriate context. It went through our rigorous editorial processes.

“It is important that journalism looks at issues - even where there are strongly held positions. The BBC is here to ensure debate and to make sure a wide a range of voices are heard.”

attitude.co.uk/article/bbc-responds-to-backlash-to-article-about-lesbians-being-pressured-into-sex-by-some-trans-women-1/26090/

Women's sexual proclivities are not subject to discriminatory judgement. We're not an exercise in equality.

They don't have to future proof their decisions against some hypothetical situation which might constitute a what if.

This.

There's a huge difference between someone who dresses like Napoleon and someone who claims to be Napoleon.

The former is going to be far more attractive to most people.

I can well imagine women for whom "short man in French military uniform" is their type, but would then totally lose that at a certain point of over-commitment.

(Although conversely, I can imagine in certain circles you might have individuals who all want to inhabit a mutual role play universe, in which case commitment to the role might be a benefit?)

Exactly. If a man is 'presenting as the opposite sex', they are inhabiting the stereotypes which are detrimental to women. If a man is presenting as a man and wearing a frock, he isn't.

Yes!

Oh the BBC's response is brilliant. Good on them for not backing down.

That letter is really quite something isn't it. They don't realise what an own goal it is introducing people to the idea of a lesbian with a beard and a female penis.

I really cannot understand how Finn cannot see what they are doing by publicly saying lesbians should not be going public with this.

It is incredibly disappointing from someone who is supposed to stand up for women.

“Oh… yes, you can talk about it, but only to the people the community agrees you to talk to about it and when we feel it is convenient.” That is what they are doing.

I am actually really upset about Finn’s comments. I was sexually abused by a relative as a young teen. I was told that it was awful, they knew, but could I please don’t talk about it as it would be so awful for the abuser’s immediate family.

This is beyond chilling. Victims of abuse should never be silenced. To tell them to be silent just because it is sad if the abusers face consequences is horrific and an abuse in itself.

I really cannot understand how Finn cannot see what they are doing by publicly saying lesbians should not be going public with this.

On two levels.

1. Can Finn really not see how this is wrong, and the utterly standard dynamic about how abuse gets out of hand?

2. Can Finn not see what this makes the movement look like, and how it confirms the basic premise of the article? Did Finn not understand the article?

We're not raising this to be "anti-trans", we're trying to stop this happening. The reaction of the community, and its failure to deal with this, is the point of the story, and one of the main reasons LGB Alliance was founded.

Sexual coercion by transwomen would not have become a huge BBC article if it hadn't been excused and covered up. This could have been dealt with much earlier following the GetTheLOut protests years back, and the BBC wouldn't have had to write this.

This is not going to just go away if Stonewall et al keep ignoring it.

I saw this on Twitter today - Ruth Aylett is Owen Jones's mum - explains a lot!

This is the kind of nonsense seemingly normal, kind women are posting on Twitter about this article:

Christine Cavalier (@PurpleCar) Tweeted: "Is a lesbian transphobic if she does not want to have sex with trans women?"

Yes.

Let me explain why.

I just learned this myself a few months ago. I went to a trusted friend who helped me work out why this is problematic when I couldn't see it for myself.

#CisWithTheT

twitter.com/PurpleCar/status/1453342549624643586?s=20

There follows a lot of garbage about human responses to danger, then we get this:

When a person says they will not date trans women, they are making a very wide generalization that dehumanizes individuals. It doesn't address personal preference, like "I prefer to fuck vaginas over penises." It assumes that each and every trans person is the exact same.

She jumps here from the specific to the general, which is poor, but essentially the accusation is that lesbians who say no to all male members of the trans community are committing the crime of assuming they are all the same. Yes, they are because they are all male. Which is why lesbians exclusively attracted to female people will not date them.

And so on.

What is heartening is that this very long and properly daft thread is getting ratioed like crazy. People on Twitter are not having it - 1.4K comments for that first tweet, but only 65 likes.

(At one point she seems to describe the sexual orientation of lesbians as a "fear of errant penis". )

In the Catholic Church for a long time there was denial about predatory priests abusing vulnerable children & women. This was denied because it was unthinkable as priests because they were considered beyond reproach as holy men -purely because of their role & because of the damage to the church.
What was not understood is that predators seek hiding places where they can find victims & that this happens across all sectors -hence Jimmy Saville & his ilk, scout masters abusers, & also includes other religions which had the same issues
These are always a rare minority of people but caution & openness is essential to make sure that predators do not take advantage.
Denying that this is impossible & that any witnesses to the contrary are liars will lead to abuse & scandal if hidden which will ultimately do disservice to the reputation of any group or community

When a person says they will not date trans women, they are making a very wide generalization that dehumanizes individuals. It doesn't address personal preference, like "I prefer to fuck vaginas over penises." It assumes that each and every trans person is the exact same.

But everyone is (or was until now) allowed to have personal preferences when it comes to who they fancy and want to sleep with. Maybe someone can't bear beards, or doesn't fancy women who are taller than them. You can't help what you fancy, what you find offputting/unsexy. These are not generalisations about the actual people or anything else about them, its not saying they are bad people or won't make a good partner. It's just that there are things you don't fancy and for lesbians that is maleness.

It's a massive sophistry to imply that not fancying males is saying anything about TW at all, other than that they are male.

@Helleofabore

I really cannot understand how Finn cannot see what they are doing by publicly saying lesbians should not be going public with this.

It is incredibly disappointing from someone who is supposed to stand up for women.

“Oh… yes, you can talk about it, but only to the people the community agrees you to talk to about it and when we feel it is convenient.” That is what they are doing.

And Fin is the woman who claims that she is going to resolve the tension between GC women and TRAs.

No you aren't, Fin. There's not a hope in Hell of you doing that.

This piece of bare-faced propaganda is from NBC - the aptly named ‘Peacock Network' that has a dodgy record on the sexual harassment of women. Zero attempt at objective or balanced reporting.

An argument that TAs are going with at the moment is that some lesbians don't like "penis", but not all transwomen have one. So it may be acceptable for a lesbian to say that she doesn't want to have sex with a transwoman with a penis, but once that transwoman has a "vagina" rather than a penis, of course a lesbian will be happy to have sex with them. Apparently a post-operative transwoman is indisputably 100% female and acceptable to all lesbians. And it's unacceptable to say that you won't date transwomen, because you won't initially know whether they have a penis or not.

As a non lesbian I’m assuming that lesbians aren’t attracted to women because they lack a penis.

Surely it’s because they have a vagina, a real one not a neo one, and surely it’s also to do with the other female features that can’t be replicated in the way breasts can- hip shape, size of hands, jaw, voice and so on.

It’s a false argument to suggest a lesbian not being attracted to tw just because some (most) still have a penis, it’s because they are male in every other respect also, and most importantly because they are not female in every way all women are.

@MrsMadderRose

When a person says they will not date trans women, they are making a very wide generalization that dehumanizes individuals. It doesn't address personal preference, like "I prefer to fuck vaginas over penises." It assumes that each and every trans person is the exact same.

But everyone is (or was until now) allowed to have personal preferences when it comes to who they fancy and want to sleep with. Maybe someone can't bear beards, or doesn't fancy women who are taller than them. You can't help what you fancy, what you find offputting/unsexy. These are not generalisations about the actual people or anything else about them, its not saying they are bad people or won't make a good partner. It's just that there are things you don't fancy and for lesbians that is maleness.

It's a massive sophistry to imply that not fancying males is saying anything about TW at all, other than that they are male.

I'm straight. This doesn't mean I want to shag all men.

Why on earth are the trans lobby so thick as to presume that all lesbians want to shag all women? Let alone trans women ?!

I mean it's just so mindblowingly stupid 🤯

@BloodinGutters

As a non lesbian I’m assuming that lesbians aren’t attracted to women because they lack a penis.

Surely it’s because they have a vagina, a real one not a neo one, and surely it’s also to do with the other female features that can’t be replicated in the way breasts can- hip shape, size of hands, jaw, voice and so on.

It’s a false argument to suggest a lesbian not being attracted to tw just because some (most) still have a penis, it’s because they are male in every other respect also, and most importantly because they are not female in every way all women are.

Surely people are attracted to individuals?! They can generalise about this in any way they chose.

Surely it’s because they have a vagina, a real one not a neo one, and surely it’s also to do with the other female features that can’t be replicated in the way breasts can- hip shape, size of hands, jaw, voice and so on.

Yes this too. I'm straight, I don't fancy "penis", I fancy (some) men. A penis is part of the package but so is the whole body, voice, face etc. I don't feel the same about women.

That downright offensive argument from OJ's mum that lesbians should be up for penis because dildos

FFS
Lesbians are allowed to not be into males.
That's what being a female homosexual is.

FFS
Lesbians are allowed to not be into males.
That's what being a female homosexual is.

This👋!

TRAs are working hard to change the definition of "homosexuality" to mean "homogender". They don't just want an additional thing - being homogender - they want homosexuality as most of us understand it at the moment to cease to exist. They're denying that it's a thing.

That's what being a female homosexual is.

Indeed, we invented a word for it, because it's a real, semi-common phenomenon.

I do not believe being attracted to a particular gender identity is a thing, as I do not believe anyone (even Layla Moran) can perceive a gender identity. Maybe we could get some paranormal researchers together with some sex researchers to prove that someone can actually respond to a gender identity.

We can perhaps skip the paranormal bit and try to get the sex researchers to figure out if someone can be attracted to a stated gender identity. Check for increased/decreased arousal after hearing someone state their pronouns? Again, doubtful.

(Finally, sure, gender presentation will be a factor, but they're not advocating for that. Demanding any particular presentation is transphobic).

So they're trying to take away a word that describes a real objective phenomenon and apply it to something that no-one has demonstrated exists.

And the BBC is now defining homosexuality as meaning "homogender".

It's so aggressive. It's not enough for people to accept that some people are attracted to others based on their gender (assuming that's true). The actual existence of homosexuality has to be denied and the name itself stolen.

When a person says they will not date trans women, they are making a very wide generalization that dehumanizes individuals. It doesn't address personal preference, like "I prefer to fuck vaginas over penises." It assumes that each and every trans person is the exact same.

This is indisputably saying that it dehumanizes individuals if you have any sexual preferences whatsoever. If you are gay you are some sort of bigot. Same if you are straight or if you prefer blondes, bikers, people with tattoos or funky hair. All preference is bigotry as it assumes that each person in whatever category you want or don't want is the same. As Stonewall claims to be supporting LGBT+ rights, this makes it a bigoted organisation.

The comment about dildos is the same argument which has been used to minimise sexual assault to women for many, many years. "you wanted it yesterday so it can't really be a big deal that I made you do it today", "you're hardly a virgin are you", "you slept with my mate so what's the big deal about me having sex with you too?" . This is the language and logic of rapists. Also, as someone who has enjoyed both dildos and penises, I can say with some authority that they are not the same in any meaningful way. Just because they are the same sort of shape and size, that does not mean they are equivalent. It's a very different sexual experience. Again, this kind of aggression to a woman's choices is rape language. Trying to homogenize all sexual experiences such that any choice within that is something a woman should feel ashamed of is absolutely disgusting.

That downright offensive argument from OJ's mum that lesbians should be up for penis because dildos shock

She's really not listening to her silly self, is she. Because the exact same argument could be used towards her own son.

Why doesn't he date women with dildos?