BBC article about cotton ceiling

[GingerAndTheBiscuits]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385 including Angela Wild, Rose of Dawn and Debbie Hayton. There’s no way this would have been published even just a few months ago 🤯

And it matters a lot to everyone of us with same sex oriented family and friends and that feels like a very big number.

It matters a lot to all women. If consent is not important anymore, if women are supposed to GET OVER their unwillingness to have sex with someone, we're all taking a huge step back for women's rights.

Also, we're raising girls to believe it's wrong to say no. And shaming them for their feelings. Teaching them that they should be support / validation / sexual service creatures for other people. This won't affect only a few select lesbian girls.

@RoyalCorgi

Interview-based qualitative research is an entirely valid research method for academics - and, obviously, the whole basis of traditional journalism.

Of course it is. Little OJ must know this, unless he's an even worse journalist than we thought. Take practically any subject you care to name and the way that journalists write about it is to interview a few case studies and draw conclusions.

Exactly. It's largely how journalism works isn't it?

Anyway, OJ can hardly talk given that these days the way he constructs a scoop and 'exposes the truth' is to shout out to a couple of his mates on Twitter and then get them on to chat about their opinions the subject in question on a YouTube live stream.

The denial of this on twitter is astounding, especially among some teachers / school content providers for RSE content.

@Vanishun

"It doesn't matter to most women" is perhaps homophobic in itself.

Statistically lesbians will always be a minority. Does that mean they don't count?

This is never going to be an issue in my life. I’m not gay and even if DH were to leave me tomorrow I wouldn’t start dating again. I’m never going to face this problem. However some women are and it’s my duty to support them.

I'll just leave this here. www.gov.uk/complain-about-charity

If anyone wants to complain to the charities commission about Stonewalls homophobia and enthusiasm for coercive corrective rape.

STONEWALL EQUALITY LIMITED, Charity number: 1101255

The process is to first complain to the charity, which you know they won't respond to [email protected], when they ignore you or give unsatisfactory responses you can proceed with your complaint.

Its infuriating but not surprising that the usual suspects try to discredit the BBC piece, however more people will now have heard of the “Cotton Ceiling” and I’m very pleased about that. I expect it will revolt many people.

@ArabellaScott I was talking about Stonewall supporting freedom of sexual orientation not talking about the freedom to have any given particular sexual encounter.

I don't really understand why people wouldn't believe lesbians are being pressurised into having sex with men.

Because no one listens to women. Look at the many cases of women repeatedly claiming they have been assaulted by certain men and it gets ignored, those men crack on with their careers. Then remember when a couple of men claimed they had been assaulted by a male star and he was shut down instantly.

Complaining to the Charity Commission about Stonewall’s Homophobia, is an excellent idea.

@WeeBisom

I’m seeing people online say this article is transphobic. Can anyone explain to me what exactly is transphobic about it? The headline says “SOME trans women are pressuring lesbians into sex”. It’s quite clear this is not a generalisation about trans women in general. Is women talking about being sexually assaulted and coerced into sex transphobic now?

It’s because it’s implying that a lesbian should have a choice as to whether she has a relationship/sex with a transwoman. They don’t. TWAW, even if that TW has a penis.

@MissChanandlerBong81

I'm glad that the concept of the cotton ceiling is being discussed. Anyone reading it will instantly believe it, too. It's sooo same old, same old.

Men pressuring women into sex is such a familiar concept, that everything else will just instantly slot into place.

I thought this when I read the article. I’m not a lesbian, but it instantly rang true. It’s a different context to my personal experience, but fundamentally it’s same old, same old male entitlement to sex.

I couldn’t see any mention of straight men being branded transphobic or being threatened if they don’t wish to have sex with transwomen. Just lesbians. Funny, that.

It may not be in that article but men are being called transphobe and harrassed for not wanting to have sex with transwomen.

My friend is single and a couple of years back was on bumble and tinder, he matched with a man who looked very like a real woman in photos (filters are amazing, and worrying), but during the chatting the transwoman did let my friend know what the reality was.

My friend was polite (he is always polite) and gently let that transwoman down.

That transwoman and friends went on a hunt, found my friends other social media and organised a hate campaign including trying to get my friend fired fom his job.

He was banned from tinder on the basis of hundreds of people reporting him in less than 48 hours (part of the campaign) same with bumble, he was suspended from twitter (later unsuspended but he cannot use his twitter account as every post is jumped on by the trans-activists) and he deleted facebook as they were going after everyone in his friends list, including leaving his mother and sisters hatefilled messages and sending transporn to them. They are all off facebook now.

His youngest sister is under 16 too.

The police were only interested in arresting my friend and trying to charge him, they couldn't as there is no evidence, but it still cost him thousands in lawyer fees

No action was taken against the organisers of the hate campaign, even though they are openly named on facebook and it would be trivial to find them!

@LizzieSiddal

Complaining to the Charity Commission about Stonewall’s Homophobia, is an excellent idea.

In large numbers yes, can they dismiss all of our complaints.

Way to prove that LGB Alliance was needed. Nice work, Nancy Kelley.

LGB Alliance were struggling a bit to convince people that Stonewall was actually homophobic. But they've owned up to it.

I can't think of a single lesbian group where I could share this article without being labelled a bigot or a transphobe which says it all really.

I can't think of a single lesbian group.

@beastlyslumber

I thought it was interesting that the headline was phrased some transwomen. Not because I think it's all TW. But because in journalistic language the "some" is usually considered to go without saying. We know when a headline says "Refugees entering the UK" it means some refugees. When it says, "Parents outraged by..." it means some parents.

It just strikes me that they are being super careful because they know that any potential weak spot will be blown to shreds by TRAs. They were careful to explain the relevance of the data sample, and careful to explain who they'd asked to comment, and careful to include TRA opinions (and not the most horrific ones either).

Not saying any of that is a problem. If journalists were this careful on every topic, we'd probably be in a better situation all around.

No doubt this is also why they edited in [they] and [their] penis into the account by a young girl who’d declined sex with a TM and was then raped. I’m glad they did tbh as it would have been another way for TRAs to distract and divert attention by calling into question transphobic language rather than the subject it covered.

@CreepingDeath

Is is just me or was this originally in AIBU and has now been moved to the naughty corner?

Just you it was always here! There may be another in AIBU but to be honest I don’t think I’ve ever started a thread that’s got as many replies so I haven’t had a chance to have a look between keeping up on here.

BTW doing my bit to support LGB Alliance today

There have been threads on here about the cotton ceiling and the persecution of lesbians for bloody years.

Anyone who doesn't think it's on a massive scale isn't paying attention.

How can it not be, when there isn't a single lesbian dating app where you are allowed to be a lesbian without being called transphobic? Where are all the lesbian bars?

Why are Stonewall calling sexual orientation a prejudice?

Why were the women in get the L out relentlessly targeted?

Why is the LGB alliance called a hate group?

If lesbians are not being persecuted, why can't a single LGBT group tell you what one is?

There is a site on tumblr called antifemale receipts, which has post after post of lesbians being verbally abused for excluding men, including teenage girls. (It needs a trigger warning if you're going to google it.)

This has been going on for years.

Magdalen Berns was thrown out of her LGBT society at university, for saying she would never sleep with a transwoman.

Older lesbians, in an established relationship, may not have encountered the problem quite as much.

But younger lesbians, who live a massive amount of their life online will be fully aware of it.

It's the natural progression of TWAW. It's exactly the same.

I know I'm very late to the game but I'm genuinely shocked to see this on the BBC. Delighted but shocked.

I've been told I was believing in ridiculous myths when I talked about the cotton ceiling but now there isn't is in black & white on the bbc!!!

Huge respect due to Angela Wild.

I'm quite sure I saw LOJ saying he would not be attracted to a transman and it was homophobic to question him on this. Maybe I imagined that exchange, because it's completely at odds with what he's saying today.

The ways of the transactivist are a mystery to my little female brain, @Tanith That's why I need a proper woman (a man) to tell me how to do womanning properly, and also educate me about feminism. Being born a woman just isn't good enough.

Interesting that it had been on the front page of my app earlier today, under 'features and analysis', on the main page. Then it could be found if you chose 'England', but it doesn't seem to be on the front page of England any more. Now the only way to find it on the app seems to be through 'popular' (most read) stories - which seems like a slightly deliberate way of getting rid of it, as it's not going to say on 'most read' if they've taken it off other places.

Males on lesbian dating apps and lesbians who object being accused of bigotry. Presumably all of those saying 'this isn't happening' on Twitter, including our fave usual suspects, also think that males should be on lesbian dating apps if they want to be and that it's bigotry to have any objection to this at all.

@WarriorN

The denial of this on twitter is astounding, especially among some teachers / school content providers for RSE content.

Teachers?????

Fuck. Safeguarding is meaningless to them.

I’m trying to decide secondary school for daughter with autism this week. Am throwing up regularly because of this.

And then have to address primary still not fixing their pshe curriculum.

What the actual fuck is wrong with teachers!!!!!!

I think the wording of the article, from headline on, is very, very carefully chosen. This is obviously a journalist who has inhabited this space for a long time and knows how it goes. I assume that’s why the article so clearly set out the limitations of the survey, because it cuts off at the knees those detractors who would immediately start screaming about low numbers and unrepresentative groups. Hard to scream about them when the author has already cited them.