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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Changing sex is impossible

136 replies

Basicbitch40 · 25/10/2021 01:17

An xy person can never become an xx person and surely that's obvious. So why do so many people believe that you can change sex? I'm baffled.

OP posts:
LaetitiaASD · 26/10/2021 17:42

Sorry - there is evidence, their own words, there is no independently verifiable evidence.

LaetitiaASD · 26/10/2021 17:52

@RufustheBadgeringReindeer

I was soeaking to someone yesterday who obviously knows people can’t change sex but thinks there is a sweet spot where the person concerned has had all the surgery and is on hormones etc

It was quite a good discussion even though we obviously disagreed on some things….what was ‘fair’ in women’s sports for example

Presumably they agree that the sweet spot where a man is "good to go" in women's sports is identical to the sweet spot where a man is "good to go" in the bed of a heterosexual man or a lesbian woman?

If this person is a heterosexual man I am hoping that you made it very clear that the sweet spot where a man who is trans is welcome in women's sport is presumably the same as the sweet spot where this person should be open to exploring this woman's penis or neo-vagina.

Fieldofgreycorn · 26/10/2021 17:56

@Basicbitch40

An xy person can never become an xx person and surely that's obvious. So why do so many people believe that you can change sex? I'm baffled.
You cannot change your genetic sex no.

So what?

There are 2 sexes. Sex is made up of more than just chromosomes or gametes. You can change aspects of your physical sex. Some people change their sex hormones, their secondary sex characteristics and to some extent their primary sex characteristics.

As a society we treat these people - for most purposes - as if they have changed sex. Socially, legally and to some extent medically. (Where appropriate).

We do this because current medical thinking is that there is likely a mixture of factors, genetic, biological, social and cultural that lead to the development of a cross sex identity. So far attempts to change gender identity have failed. Therefore the next best thing (for male to female and female to male people) has been done which is to support people to transition to, and live as, their new sex (which some call gender). People are able to function and contribute to society when supported to do so.

Some people that do this resemble their transitioned sex more closely than others. Those that do have less problems being accepted as their transitioned sex in most situations. Those that don’t… well yes there is an element of politeness involved.

AssassinatedBeauty · 26/10/2021 18:04

Some people change their sex hormones, their secondary sex characteristics and to some extent their primary sex characteristics.

To borrow your phrase, so what?

Yes, a male bodied person can alter their hormones, have surgery to cosmetically alter their body. But a male person with altered hormones and a cosmetically altered body does not become a female person. They are an altered male, superficially similar to a female person. Nothing about those changes gives them a female hormone system or female primary or secondary sex characteristics. It gives them altered male ones.

You are asking women to show "politeness" to male bodied people who don't pass as female. My question is why?

AlfonsoTheUnrepetant · 26/10/2021 18:13

Humans cannot change sex. Those who think that it is possible also admire the emperor's new clothes.

LaetitiaASD · 26/10/2021 18:13

@Fieldofgreycorn

"There are 2 sexes. Sex is made up of more than just chromosomes or gametes. You can change aspects of your physical sex. Some people change their sex hormones, their secondary sex characteristics and to some extent their primary sex characteristics."

So what? They can never know what it is to be born and brought up and be the sex that they are not? If I were able to fuse a horn to my forehead and it were to somehow start growing I would still be 100% human (only with a horn); I would not be even 1% of the way to becoming a unicorn.

"As a society we treat these people - for most purposes - as if they have changed sex. Socially, legally and to some extent medically. (Where appropriate)."

I cannot believe that anyone is ever treated medically as anything other than their biological sex, subject to previously undertaken interventions, unless a mistake is being made.

That the law lies says nothing other than the law lies.

Socially I strongly suspect that most trans women are treated as men, trans women or people the vast majority of the time and are very rarely treated as women.

"Some people that do this resemble their transitioned sex more closely than others. Those that do have less problems being accepted as their transitioned sex in most situations. Those that don’t… well yes there is an element of politeness involved."

Yep. Similarly, fraudsters who closely resemble honest people have fewer problems conning innocent members of the public, whereas those who are blatant fraudsters are humoured but never get their hands on innocent people's money.

ditalini · 26/10/2021 18:35

I keep reading about this "current medical thinking" but never from actual medical sources

Maybe you could cite some of those medical sources (ie not pop sci mags, sociologists, youtube videos and Twitter accounts).

maslinpan · 26/10/2021 18:41

A transwoman can never get cervical cancer. A transman can never get prostate cancer. In their heart of hearts they must know this, even if they deny it until they are blue in the face.

PermanentTemporary · 26/10/2021 18:48

People don't deny it, not if they get pinned down to that level of detail. They just say it's irrelevant or private or that plenty of 'people' post hysterectomy don't have a cervix. The idea of a human as a ticklish of organs instead of a living sexed developed being.

PermanentTemporary · 26/10/2021 18:48

Ticklist not ticklish...

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 26/10/2021 19:44

Presumably they agree that the sweet spot where a man is "good to go" in women's sports is identical to the sweet spot where a man is "good to go" in the bed of a heterosexual man or a lesbian woman?

I didn’t go there 🤔 didn’t get to it rather than refused to do it

He doesn’t think it now….

TheGoogleMum · 26/10/2021 19:51

I think this push to say people can change sex is actually very harmful and misleading to people with dysphoria. It's selling them a dream they think wil solve their problems but ultimately they'll never achieve it because it isnt possible

PrincessNutella · 27/10/2021 02:18

Here's the thing. Just as I accept that Christians believe in God, I accept that some men strongly identify as female. I do not believe either of these things, but I am fine sharing the public square and all of the resources associated with it with people who have different beliefs. But these aren't my beliefs. So when it comes to protected spaces for MY group, I don't think it's appropriate for men coming into the women's room, no matter how they identify.

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 27/10/2021 06:46

The longer we go on allowing Stonewall to teach its misinterpretation of the law, the more children will grow up believing humans can be born in the wrong body. It’s hard to shake the beliefs you imbibed in childhood. Even if it becomes illegal to teach a ‘legal fiction’ as fact, those early beliefs linger in our minds.

Learning that their early beliefs were wrong is a painful struggle for children brought up in religious cults — and they are usually in relatively small groups. When they find out a whole society has colluded in the ‘wrong body’ teaching, those poor kids will either feel betrayed or refuse to accept the truth.

Helleofabore · 27/10/2021 07:17

So, does this mean those people who undertake body modifications to resemble vampires and who indulge in drinking blood, and generally change their life to resemble a vampire should be treated as a vampire.

I mean, they have their bodies modified to suit, and their habits match vampire habits, probably to a degree that you could say their body reflects these changes in hormone, vitamin levels etc.

So they are good to go right? We should offer them as much blood as they need, despite whether we have a surplus or not. Despite whether their bodies can in fact tolerate drinking human blood and the negative long term effects. If other people are being put in harms way, we need to suck it up as a society because their, the vampires, needs should have the same priority as non-vampires (call it cishumans, because we are erroneously told that cishumans simply means not vampires).

Because they have pointy teeth, pale skin, and after some time their blood tests will show that they have all the levels associated with being a vampire. And people tell them that they cannot be seen in mirrors all the time and keep telling them the things they want to hear.

All because they have made artificial modifications to their bodies to match their mind and they and their allies demand they have indeed changed to vampires.

Helleofabore · 27/10/2021 07:46

There are 2 sexes. Sex is made up of more than just chromosomes or gametes. You can change aspects of your physical sex. Some people change their sex hormones, their secondary sex characteristics and to some extent their primary sex characteristics.

Right? Why should someone who does this be allowed to access the rights and opportunities set up for females if they are not female?

Why is this not acceptable for changing age or race again? I seem to keep missing why the protected category of sex can be accessed through artificial body modifications and not other protected categories.

As a society we treat these people - for most purposes - as if they have changed sex. Socially, legally and to some extent medically. (Where appropriate).

No. Some parts of society treat these people as if they have changed sex.

I did like though your ‘for most purposes’. I would add ‘never treated as the opposite sex where sex actually matters and this includes single sex spaces, sports and for instances where females have been given opportunities that seem to address centuries of discrimination due to having a body formed from conception to have the potential to produce large gametes.

We do this because current medical thinking is that there is likely a mixture of factors, genetic, biological, social and cultural that lead to the development of a cross sex identity.

Please evidence this. Because you are deliberately twisting a whole lot of academic fields under the umbrella of ‘medical thinking’ and I doubt you actually can produce this evidence at all. You have made a very big claim so you must have been reading very widely to form this assertions. We shall wait for your evidence.

So far attempts to change gender identity have failed. Therefore the next best thing (for male to female and female to male people) has been done which is to support people to transition to, and live as, their new sex (which some call gender). People are able to function and contribute to society when supported to do so.

All good, except when there are clashes to established rights for females. Come on, you have been posting on these boards long enough, you have heard it all before. Strange though, no consideration is ever given by you to women who are patiently pointing out the conflicts.

Some people that do this resemble their transitioned sex more closely than others. Those that do have less problems being accepted as their transitioned sex in most situations. Those that don’t… well yes there is an element of politeness involved.

So again, we are told to be kind, to allow the lies, to ignore the harm to woman and children that this is causing to perpetuate this for some people.

Is there another group of people who you feel should get this special treatment? If you cannot see the dissonance in your post, then I guess you are continuing to willfully ignore it. As usual.

You entire post was ‘we know people are artificially modifying their bodies to match what they feel their bodies should (same with the people with 100% body tattooing, including eyes, and tongue modifications to resemble a snake or a dragon or whatever… or vampires), and you admit there are some times that they should not be treated like the opposite sex (but you don’t qualify those occasions), and for those who don’t pass- be kind and pretend they pass to access whatever they damn well want despite if it harms women and children.

bordersroaming · 27/10/2021 07:50

A transwoman will always be identified by their hormones, physical bone structure ,the none organic nature of any physical modification

bordersroaming · 27/10/2021 07:52

As a society people used to feel so sorry for these people that they would try not to remind them they were not who they wanted to be, but excessive bullying and the exclusion of severe gender dysmorphia as a key condition of trans has changed that

bordersroaming · 27/10/2021 08:02

Yet evidence from the older generations of women suggests that it is purely social constraints that led to problems , which these women could overcome once they recognised then for what they are

But no one ever listens to the witches do they ?

Holly60 · 27/10/2021 08:33

@Babdoc

MsTSwift, the analogy with God is not a good one, as millions of Christians have had direct experience of the presence of God, Jesus was a real person, and there are eye witness accounts of His resurrection, recorded by, amongst others, St Paul. Perhaps flat Earthers are a better comparison, where the belief is demonstrably false. You cannot disprove the existence of God.
Thank goodness you wrote this. I read Swift’s post and cringed…
DecayedStrumpet · 27/10/2021 08:33

Franca I found the relevant infographic Grin

Changing sex is impossible
MsTSwift · 27/10/2021 08:42

Why? That’s my belief. It isn’t real and neither can you change sex. Those views may upset some people but they are my views and I am entitled to them.

Zerogravity · 27/10/2021 08:46

A lot of young people actually do seem to think you can change sex now. I read someone on Twitter the other day who said that we have recently discovered that trans women are actually female.... It's such a shame that this pushing and pushing to deny reality is actually harming trans people and women. If we could start from the truth - that you cannot change sex - we could actually improve things instead of wasting time arguing against nature.

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 27/10/2021 08:53

@MsTSwift

Why? That’s my belief. It isn’t real and neither can you change sex. Those views may upset some people but they are my views and I am entitled to them.
I agree

Its used as an analogy a lot as its linked to people believing in a god and insisting that everyone else believes that the god actually exists

As opposed to those that believe in a god and lets everyone else believe whatever they want

MsTSwift · 27/10/2021 09:00

I would love to believe in god my grandfather was a vicar but from as long as I could remember deep down I just know it isn’t true and I feel the same with this. It would make my life easier and pleasanter (I have teens) if I could believe in both but I just can’t.

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