Changing sex is impossible

[Basicbitch40]

An xy person can never become an xx person and surely that's obvious. So why do so many people believe that you can change sex? I'm baffled.

@Babdoc

MsTSwift, the analogy with God is not a good one, as millions of Christians have had direct experience of the presence of God, Jesus was a real person, and there are eye witness accounts of His resurrection, recorded by, amongst others, St Paul. Perhaps flat Earthers are a better comparison, where the belief is demonstrably false. You cannot disprove the existence of God.

Hahaha, thank you, needed that on a Monday morning 🤣🤣🤣

I'm also going to chip in and say that I was very pleased to see so many scientists chip in when Margaret Atwood tweeted the Sciam article that uses DSD/VSD to argue that sex is a spectrum. (It was wretched for all of the organisations and advocates who had to remind Atwood, yet again, not to misunderstand them, yet again, and to stop using them as a cover for wrong science.)

Because they think “male” and “female” are social concepts, not biological terms. It’s about how you feel inside and how you identify. Therefore according to this principle genitals don’t matter, so men can menstruate and women can have penises because those things are not how we define men and women. Hence the descriptions of us as cervix-havers, pregnant people etc.

Of course you can't change sex.

You can try and change your appearance because you want people relying on a few visual cues to assume you are the opposite sex, but you remain the sex you were born.

Interestingly whenever you try and have a conversation with a trans rights activist on here about sex, they usually change the term to "gender identity assigned at birth" and refuse to talk about sex
(Example: "are you trans if the word used to describe your gender identity is different from the word used to describe your biological sex?" "Yes, you are trans if your gender identity assigned at birth is different from your current gender identity").

This is an odd linguistic sleight of hand and suggests that sex and gender should be used interchangeably, except that means then that they can't differ if you can't differentiate them, so it's all quite confusing!

Robert Lifton has 8 criteria for Thought Reform based on his research into brainwashing and prisoners of war.

I've listed them here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4382551-Live-not-by-lies-Solzhenitsyn-no-tambourines-involved?msgid=111900052

3 of the interesting ones for this discussion are:

Sacred Science. The group's doctrine or ideology is considered to be the ultimate Truth, beyond all questioning or dispute. Truth is not to be found outside the group. The leader, as the spokesperson for God or all humanity, is likewise above criticism.

Loading the Language. The group interprets or uses words and phrases in new ways so that often the outside world does not understand. This jargon consists of thought-terminating clichés, which serve to alter members' thought processes to conform to the group's way of thinking.

Dispensing of existence. The group has the prerogative to decide who has the right to exist and who does not. This is usually not literal but means that those in the outside world are not saved, unenlightened, unconscious, and must be converted to the group's ideology. If they do not join the group or are critical of the group, then they must be rejected by the members. Thus, the outside world loses all credibility. In conjunction, should any member leave the group, he or she must be rejected also.

The language is being changed around us and it's making it fraught to have conversations in some contexts or to scrutinise policies and legislation. Look at the government's recent refusal to record biological sex because 'nobody knows how to assess sex and biological sex doesn't exist'.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4382975-Trans-Criminals-are-not-Women-says-Priti-Patel?msgid=111908344

How often are we told that belief in the immutability of sex is evidence of bigotry and younger people don't have our restricted thinking and this will all become clearer as those of us with these arcane wrongthink patterns die out?

As far as I can gather, cobbled together from the snippets of information they let out. It's something like your hormones, organs and external genitals can change over your life which means there's a whole variety of sexes not just two. I haven't been able to find out what they believe this means in reality. Like actual examples. For me, it begs the question, my mum has had a hysterectomy and been through the menopause. Does that mean she isn't fully a woman anymore? They are keeping the details to themselves, presumably as it's bat shit crazy. Drives me insane having to hunt down tit bits of information.

Impossible to change sex, as Lord Winston said and as everyone knows really. Even trans men and women, gone through all the procedures with hormones and surgery, they know they have not changed sex. For some, like Buck Angel, it's enough, and he is comfortable with the fact he will always be biologically female. I spoke with a trans woman recently who said she's not male, but not female either, she feels like there should be a 'third state'.

But there are other trans individuals for whom this is not enough and so they have pushed and pushed for the language and the very way we process actual reality to be changed. Under these new definitions, they are women. In fact, better than women, the default woman - and yes, a trans woman I was speaking to on twitter did take offence at being described as a trans woman by me, and suggested instead 'woman' and 'non trans woman'. I think she was being sarcastic, but when I pointed out The Green Party had done just that, she blocked me!

So, with the language twisted and rearranged, you then hear the stories of Keira Bell and Sinaed Watson, who were tricked into thinking they really would be changing sex by the whole damn community when they took hormones and cut off their breasts, only to realise when it was too late that it was a fiction!!

I have young girls telling me the trans women they know are just like them and they are happy undressing with them, sharing rooms with them, playing sports with them.... and either not wanting to look uncool or row with their kids their mothers agree, when they should be warning them....yes, maybe the pal you grew up and you trust and you have known for years who is now a trans woman is fine. But what about the 40 year old in a wig, the man who says he is gender fluid and wants to wear a dress whenever he feels like it and use your changing rooms?

What about Loudon School?

Not, I hasten to add, that trans women are predatory men, but we ALL KNOW young girls - and boys - should have boundaries in place. This is breaking down those boundaries we have been safely building for decades.

And then we also change the meaning of words like bigot, fascist, transphobe. We change the meaning of words like hate and hate crimes, violence, harm, unsafe. We make people scared of not using the new language.

With language, with compliance, and enabling we have changed language, and reality.

Totally agree. People who think this, or say they do, should have gone to that biology class instead of bunking off to smoke behind the bike sheds, or whatever it was that they were doing instead of learning about how their bodies work.

There's a direct correlation between lack of Biology GCSE and the TRA nonsense.

I don't think people really believe it. But saying you do is the inevitable end consequence if the ideology.

Its starts off small, pronouns, and other seemingly harmless adaptations and before you know it you have been tricked into saying people can change sex and saying rapists should chose their prisons.

Once in its hard to get out and some.people would rather see it through to the end than admit they were fooled.

Of course the ability to shit on women and threaten wonen with violence and be able to say lesbianism should include males and still be seen as the "good guy" is also very appealing.

The Judith Butler in the Guardian this weekend was also very informative. The long and short of it being, you can only understand these matters if you have a PhD in gender studies...... so just accept that we're right. Now call me cynical, but to me that screams bullshit.

If you read the stuff the TRAs write, they seem to believe a variety of different things:

1. Clownfish can change sex, so humans can change sex too.
2. Sex is not binary. It exists on a spectrum, and this is proven by the existence of intersex people.
3. It is possible to have a female brain in a male body, and vice versa.
4. Nobody knows their own chromosomes so nobody know what sex they are really!
5. Biological sex is very complicated, so while one marker of sex (eg genitalia) might suggest you're one sex, your chromosomes (or other markers of sex) might suggest another.
6. Biological sex is socially constructed, while gender identity is real.

There are probably others, but those are the main ones I've noted.

In deed.

Trans people don't actually require everyone else to bend their reality and see them as their preferred sex; 'talk to actual trans people' I am told, by TRAs on line and actually I have - I have a trans woman relative and have worked with several, they say the same thing - they know what they are, they are content with being themselves, they self exclude from female spaces and are respectful of female bodies, they don't insist on smear tests or being included in breast feeding groups, I know trans women who are still 'dad' or 'uncle', even one trans woman who didn't change her name (she was called after her grandad, its an important part of her identity).

So who is making these demands and for what reason. Well, I can think of about two hundred billion reasons, I think money is the motivatior here but with the added bonus that it helps break down established and strong boundaries and enables people to be vile and vicious and violent to women with impunity.

*RoyalCorgi

If you read the stuff the TRAs write, they seem to believe a variety of different things:

1. Nobody knows their own chromosomes so nobody know what sex they are really!*

..... until it comes to babies. Then everyone knows what sex they are. And if you want a baby you need a womb. If you haven't got one yourself you need to get one and EVERYONE knows what sex has the wombs, sheesh....

MNHQ why was my message deleted?

@IvyTwines2 I’d report your post if you want an answer. They won’t see your message otherwise

@Franca123

The Judith Butler in the Guardian this weekend was also very informative. The long and short of it being, you can only understand these matters if you have a PhD in gender studies...... so just accept that we're right. Now call me cynical, but to me that screams bullshit.

That would be both Sacred Science and Language Loading as above in Lifton's Thought Reform research.

EVERYONE knows what sex has the wombs

There's enough misinformation in mainstream media that there is uncertainty and there are the additional claims about womb implants.

@IvyTwines2

MNHQ why was my message deleted?

I have to say I have started screen shotting some of my longer posts in case they get deleted.

@Soubriquet

Some do believe it. I read about someone who did one of those dna ancestors tests and was gutted to see their dna as XY and wanted to know if anyone did a trans specific one

😂

By "trans-specific" do they mean giving them fake results? Bonkers. I wonder if you don't like your eye colour you can ask for that to be "adjusted" too. 🤣

I don't like the change in language, as if we are not pc to question it. It's as though you now can't say what Lord Winston has said, for fear of being sacked.

*EmbarrassingHadrosaurus

EVERYONE knows what sex has the wombs

There's enough misinformation in mainstream media that there is uncertainty and there are the additional claims about womb implants.*

..... and yet, everyone knows who they need when they want a baby.

But the huge sacrifices and personal cost to womankind of birthing every single human being who has ever lived is just not very important.....

The words have got all muddled up.
We started off with "transsexuals" and "sex change surgery" - if doctors call something sex change surgery it's no wonder Joe and Jill public will think what it does is change your sex. The arrogance of the medical profession, really.

Then more recently people started to recognise that really if you've had surgery, and what surgery, is down to lots of factors not least money and waiting lists, and there's nothing really more female about someone who has had cosmetic surgery. So they started avoiding mention of sex altogether and positing this concept of "gender identity" which was purely in your head and was to supplant sex.

Which obviously makes no sense at all. Even if gender identity could be shown to exist as more than a social construct, with its 100+ categories, what relevance would it be to public life? You can't provide separate facilities to each gender identity, and why would you want to? It makes about as much sense as splitting facilities by which football team people identify with.

@Basicbitch40

An xy person can never become an xx person and surely that's obvious. So why do so many people believe that you can change sex? I'm baffled.

Easy.

Midwife - 3 years training
Neonatal Nurse - 3 years training
Sonographer - 3 years training
Obstetrician - 7 years training
Paediatrician - 8 years training

Biology Denier - saw a TikTok video

That's why we saw the spectacle of a drama student trying to education Professor Lord Winston, one of the world's foremost experts in medicine and science, in biology.

Flaming autocorrect. "educate" not "education".

By "trans-specific" do they mean giving them fake results? Bonkers. I wonder if you don't like your eye colour you can ask for that to be "adjusted" too. 🤣

Genuine lack of ability to deal with reality. And people suggest affirming it! Madness