Changing sex is impossible

[Basicbitch40]

An xy person can never become an xx person and surely that's obvious. So why do so many people believe that you can change sex? I'm baffled.

I know a transwoman who is convinced she must not, and in fact, does not have XY chromosomes in every cell. They are convinced that that is why they grew up to become trans (they identified as gay in their teen years but that has now been rebranded as a transitional step). They are convinced by the whole 'nobody knows their own chromosomes' argument and firmly believes that all/most transpeople 'must' have non standard chromosome arrangements which explain why they were born in the wrong body etc (notice how that one has died out?). These are ethereal and, in fact, unknowable in some sense.

When I point out that I in fact do know that I have XX chromosomes (did a degree in Genetics at uni and we tested ourselves) and that my children will also know that they (of course) have entirely standard XX or XY chromosomes that correspond with their biological sex (had genetic testing when pregnant and it's on the reports, which I have), they claim that that's highly unusual and most people could never know. I went to school with this person and while I was in Biology class they, well let's just say they weren't there for the vast majority of classes and showed no interest in the subject.

They also claim to be more of a woman than me because they take lots of estrogen and so must have much more of it than me, demonstrating a similarly flawed understanding of endocrinology to that of genetics, for very much the same non-class attendance reasons. I have asked whether I will be able to achieve this state of advanced womanhood when I start taking HRT but apparently not as I didn't start in my twenties like she did.

When I ask her why she doesn't get tested to see what chromosomes she has if she's convinced that explains why she is trans, she gets very upset and 'triggered' about me questioning her clearly female identify and calls me a mean TERF.

This person is actually a friend, as I say, we've known each other a long time. I respect her choices and she sort of understands my position. I can see that most of hers is backed up by incomplete or just not present understanding of science and poor education though. I wonder how things would be if she wasnt just assuming that the science backed her up.

I think there are a range of different views about this, as other posters have explained, from those who don't believe this, to those who believe they have always been female/male, to those who think sex is a state of mind, to those who think once there's been "enough" surgery/hormones etc sex is changed.

But at the root of all of that is, I think, an inherent misogyny that men are human and women are defective. Women are "missing" body parts, so a man can (must?) be a woman if he has his penis removed, or his testosterone suppressed, or if he doesn't conform to masculine norms.

I know TRAs will also say TMAM, but as has been noted on this forum over the years, this is often an afterthought. The "male as default human" is also illustrated by female non-binary people removing their breasts and even their wombs (Christie Elan Cane for example), as though the "neutral" state must be without breasts.

Sonexit's like Who ya gonna believeme or your lyin' eyes?

they claim that that's highly unusual and most people could never know.

tbh, I'm baffled by the number of people who take DNA tests and buy them for others and upload them in the hope of uncovering family members or secrets . So, the number of people with DNA results might surprise your friend.

That's a good point. Do those ancestry DNA type kits also report on sex chromosomes?

Don't get me started on those and all the long lost brothers an sisters based on these tests which are completely non-conclusive ...

They also claim to be more of a woman than me because they take lots of estrogen and so must have much more of it than me

This was on another thread about diversity training in the workplace. The TW trainer said the same thing "I'm more woman because estrogen' ...

@FindTheTruth

They also claim to be more of a woman than me because they take lots of estrogen and so must have much more of it than me

This was on another thread about diversity training in the workplace. The TW trainer said the same thing "I'm more woman because estrogen' ...

Do we think this is: –self-validation and shoring up their immersive fiction; –true (miguided) belief; –a thought terminating cliché that precludes further thought on the trainer's part and is a warning signal to the attendees not to dissent?

my guess is 1 and 3 @EmbarrassingHadrosaurus. I'm not a psychologist so I'd love to hear from experts. maybe it's an affirmation purity test --- keep saying anti-science things until you disagree

I think it's the first one - in fact I think all of it is. Shoring up decisions made when under mental distress/trauma that has led to a position where they can't backtrack so just have to keep going with more and more ridiculous assertions (unless they're brave enough to detransition which I wish my friend was)

Whoa.

If ever anyone ever says that to me they had better hope I am not on my period!!

I started menstruating when I was 9. I am currently peri menopausal. I haven't had kids, but really try telling any woman with stretch marks, tears, stitches, post natal depression, sore nipples from breastfeeding, compromised careers from taking maternity leave, try telling any of us that some estrogen cream makes you more of a woman than any of us....

@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus

Robert Lifton has 8 criteria for Thought Reform based on his research into brainwashing and prisoners of war.

I've listed them here: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4382551-Live-not-by-lies-Solzhenitsyn-no-tambourines-involved?msgid=111900052

3 of the interesting ones for this discussion are:

Sacred Science. The group's doctrine or ideology is considered to be the ultimate Truth, beyond all questioning or dispute. Truth is not to be found outside the group. The leader, as the spokesperson for God or all humanity, is likewise above criticism.

Loading the Language. The group interprets or uses words and phrases in new ways so that often the outside world does not understand. This jargon consists of thought-terminating clichés, which serve to alter members' thought processes to conform to the group's way of thinking.

Dispensing of existence. The group has the prerogative to decide who has the right to exist and who does not. This is usually not literal but means that those in the outside world are not saved, unenlightened, unconscious, and must be converted to the group's ideology. If they do not join the group or are critical of the group, then they must be rejected by the members. Thus, the outside world loses all credibility. In conjunction, should any member leave the group, he or she must be rejected also.

The language is being changed around us and it's making it fraught to have conversations in some contexts or to scrutinise policies and legislation. Look at the government's recent refusal to record biological sex because 'nobody knows how to assess sex and biological sex doesn't exist'.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4382975-Trans-Criminals-are-not-Women-says-Priti-Patel?msgid=111908344

How often are we told that belief in the immutability of sex is evidence of bigotry and younger people don't have our restricted thinking and this will all become clearer as those of us with these arcane wrongthink patterns die out?

I think, given that they take DNA samples from those arrested, that it would be very simple to determine the biological sex of trans criminals.

In fact, its really damn simple to take a DNA sample, so all this 'you cant know your chromosomes' bullshit is smoke and mirrors. If you have ever been to hospital and had a blood sample - hell even from the heel prick test you have as a baby - they can identify your sex if they really wanted to.

There are XY women and always have been. There is something called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome.

@jennywhitehorses Does that mean that women don't exist? Or that they don't have XX chromosomes? Or that sex isn't binary? I really fail to understand the intersex argument. I really fail to see the relevancy. If you could explain this argument I would be grateful.

@jennywhitehorses

There are XY women and always have been. There is something called Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome.

And there are many threads about DSD/VSD and they are mostly well known among regular posters on this board.

As well known is the fact that people living with DSD/VSD repeatedly ask that they should not be used as gotchas or living shields in a controversial area that has nothing to do with them.

@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus but why is it a gotcha for the gender people? I knew a guy with 9 and a half fingers. Does his existence mean that humans don't have 10 fingers? I'm usually able to follow someone's thinking and then work out where they went wrong (or at least where I feel they went wrong). But this intersex thing boggles me.

For some TRAs, it’s a case of language manipulation and backfilling. You start from where you want to be and then change everything to logically lead you to this place. So, you were born male and want to be a female - ie change sex. Well, now what’s needed is to systematically go back and change definitions so that you are, in fact, female.

Sex can be brain sex or hormones or whatever works for your position. Male and female are a bit of a nuisance but you can redefine those or twist things around somehow so that you are, indeed, now female.

That’s the ultimate aim - rewriting reality to fulfil their chosen narrative. Changing sex being possible is just a part of that which can easily be achieved by redefining sex or pretending it’s so complicated it can be anything you like.

Imagine doing something so crazy with another factual thing like age. “It depends how long a year is because on Pluto it’s not 365 days so blah blah”, It’s nonsense, and the fact that this idiocy is even entertained is infuriating.

The new gotcha seems to be the concept of "different types of sex"

• chromosomal sex
• "hormonal sex"
• and some other types that I can't be arsed going back to look up but seems to be mainly about boob jobs and genital surgery

Oh, and the concept of "brain sex" never really went away.

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less." "The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean so many different things." "The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master—that's all."

How can you say that it is nothing to do with them? You have women who are XY. Unless you think that they are really men. How can you say that it is not relevant? I would say that it is very relevant.

I'm saying that a woman can be XY. That's the opposite of saying that women don't exist.

Because human beings have evolved so far that he richest amongst us have time and money to sit and navel gaze. Angst, worry and wish...

We can't go out. Space is still too far away, though very recent events have changed that a little bit.

So we look inwards. We fidgit, faddle around and decide that we are what we feel. We have spent decades discussing how much feelings, a sense of inner being, effects us on a daily basis alongside a lessening of the daily grind of hard work, the improvement of our living standards. We don't just live to work to exist any more.

So now our 'feelz' have currency.

Anyone who has read a lot of sci fi from 1870s onwards will know what happens in indolent societies, societies with a lot of leisure, technology, separation of generationa. This isn't much different from some Jules Verne, H G Wells, Robert Heinlein, Asimov, Doc Smith etc.

[quote Franca123]@jennywhitehorses Does that mean that women don't exist? Or that they don't have XX chromosomes? Or that sex isn't binary? I really fail to understand the intersex argument. I really fail to see the relevancy. If you could explain this argument I would be grateful.[/quote]
@jennywhitehorses

Can you answer my three questions please? So I can better understand your position.

You're using the word 'gotcha' to mean something completely different from what it really means. Very Humpty Dumptyish. A gotcha is when you decide that someone has said something politically unacceptable (to you). It doesn't mean when somebody makes an argument that you don't like and resent.

I've answered the first of your questions and I could answer the others but I have got to go now.

The common understanding of gotcha in online debates is when people think they have an especially killer argument, often through sophistry, begging the question, poor analogies and disingenuousness.

It's pure point scoring, by which they can claim they "won".

randalrauser.com/2017/02/gotcha-worst-part-debates/

@jennywhitehorses

I've answered the first of your questions and I could answer the others but I have got to go now.

Infuriating! Why will no one outline the relevant arguments and positions to me. I desperately want to understand this brave new world we're in. I've never been religious but I have a really decent understanding of Christian theology and enjoy it. Why can't we do the same with gender ideology. Maybe I'll take Judith Butler up on her challenge and do a university course in gender studies.

@jennywhitehorses

You're using the word 'gotcha' to mean something completely different from what it really means. Very Humpty Dumptyish. A gotcha is when you decide that someone has said something politically unacceptable (to you). It doesn't mean when somebody makes an argument that you don't like and resent.

I'm sorry but this is simply annoying. Ugh.