Changing sex is impossible

[Basicbitch40]

An xy person can never become an xx person and surely that's obvious. So why do so many people believe that you can change sex? I'm baffled.

@jennywhitehorses

How can you say that it is nothing to do with them? You have women who are XY. Unless you think that they are really men. How can you say that it is not relevant? I would say that it is very relevant.

I'm saying that a woman can be XY. That's the opposite of saying that women don't exist.

HOW!!

Mary, jesus and the poor wee fucking donkey! HOW???

You didn't answer anything., You made a statement of belief based on your utter misunderstanding of some quite basic science - and some very complicated corollaries.

To understand how divided we are by sex, think of evolution. Alll mammals are gonochoric, i.e. two-sexed. Our separation into male and female is far more deep than that, though. Our reptile ancestors were sexed, their ancestors were sexed, even before creatures had anything like a body, they were sexed. After surviving, reproducing is the second most important drive for any species. So it is the most real and unchangeable fact aboiut a creature's existence.

@jennywhitehorses

You're using the word 'gotcha' to mean something completely different from what it really means. Very Humpty Dumptyish. A gotcha is when you decide that someone has said something politically unacceptable (to you). It doesn't mean when somebody makes an argument that you don't like and resent.

Crikey! All the mixed metaphors

Then again Humpty was indeed an Identitarian!

A cannon on top of a church
Richard III
A nasty sounding cocktail of brandy and real ale
A little fat boy who couldn't climb
A pedant whose best known quote fits TRAs to a tee "“When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”

Interesting you should introduce him here.

And a Gotcha! Well, yours is the more 'interesting' meaning I have seen. Never heard is described that way before.

An awful prize in an awful teatime show
Exposing someones wrong doings
Entrapment in order to explose worngdoings
An inescapable trap of logic
A counter intuitive yet valid construct that invites mistakes because it is both easy to invoke and unexpected or unreasonable in its outcome.
Being a good friend, covering a mate's back

There will be others. But none seem to fit your aganeda @jennywhitehorses

Do elucidate, be a dear!

note: not all living creatures are sexed, of course. But this is the reproductive strategy of many creatures, including mammals, and it matters.

@PrincessNutella

To understand how divided we are by sex, think of evolution. Alll mammals are gonochoric, i.e. two-sexed. Our separation into male and female is far more deep than that, though. Our reptile ancestors were sexed, their ancestors were sexed, even before creatures had anything like a body, they were sexed. After surviving, reproducing is the second most important drive for any species. So it is the most real and unchangeable fact aboiut a creature's existence.

This brings up more questions for me. Can you believe gender ideology, by which I mean 'sex is a spectrum' and also believe in evolution? Because to my mind, reproduction relies on a sex binary. Do gender people believe that we have been placed on earth as we are? A related but different question, do other mammals have a sex binary or are they also on a sex spectrum? Basically I don't understand reproduction and evolution evolution a gender world view. Does anyone know their views in this area?

Hold on, Samphire. Most children with complete androgen insensitivity have an entirely female outward appearance as a child (though no womb or ovaries, as I understand it) and are raised as girls. For partial androgen sensitivity, the decision is a more complex one.

That's very different from someone with a bog-standard male body who transitions.

I'm sorry about all the questions but it drives me crazy that you can't get a straight answer to anything from these gender people. My friend thinks that sport shouldn't be male and female but we should have more categories to better reflect that reality of the sex spectrum. But no details are forth coming!!!!! Infuriating.

Do we think this sex spectrum crap is going to go the way of the 'gendered soul'.

@MistandMud

Hold on, Samphire. Most children with complete androgen insensitivity have an entirely female outward appearance as a child (though no womb or ovaries, as I understand it) and are raised as girls. For partial androgen sensitivity, the decision is a more complex one.

That's very different from someone with a bog-standard male body who transitions.

You'll get no argument from me there. It is complex. and @jennywhitehorses hasn't a clue

And, yet again, using individuals with DSDs in the TRA discussion as 'proof' of ideology is something many of those individuals have, individually and collectively across many SM streams, asked not to happen. Yet here we are, again!

A DSD isn't a bloody Gotcha! either!

Strikes me that religious types or people with extreme political views usually love talking about their believes. Why don't people who who think we change sex want to tell us about their opinions? Is it simply that's it's so flimsy there's nothing to say? I guess religious types always fall back on faith. Do gender people need faith?

Well over 99% of humans have chromosomes, genitals, gonads, hormones and therefore physical and sexual development that all fit one of two consistent patterns. Well under 1% have any anomaly in that set of indicators. Trans people are no more likely to be in that 0.28% than anyone else. People in the 0.28%, conversely, are slightly more likely to identify as trans than the general population.

Nobody is seriously suggesting physical transition for young children - or if they are, there is at last consensus thay it's a truly terrible idea. So there is no part of sex that changes in a meaningful way in humans.

I got the feeling Jenny very much is aware of DSDs and was just saying that it's unfair to say that no woman has XY chromosomes. But it can be hard to pick up tone from text.

CAIS individuals are gentically male, don't have a uterus and are infertile. they arent bog-standard women and they represent 1 in 100,000 people with male genetics, who are only 49% of the population. s 1/100,000th of 49%. So nothing about these very few unfortunate people that have a rare medical condition that means we need to consider sex in any other way than the standard small-gamete producing & large gamete-producing binary. They do not represent a spectrum.

I've had a quick Google to try to understand thr sex spectrum. It seems to be a load of DSDs arranged on a funky looking infographic...... Is that the long and the short of the science behind a sex spectrum? An infographic?

If sex was a spectrum DSDs wouldn't be DSDs would they ?

The 'author' was an infographic designer. I mean, I really hope there's more science behind this than that? Where would I go to get credible scientific talking about it? I mean, my friend wants sports categories to reflect the sex spectrum. She must be basing this on more than an infographic? Wtaf.

She must be basing this on more than an infographic? Wtaf

Doubtful.

I mean as I said not only would dsds not be dsds if sex really was a spectrum , what's transition if sex is a spectrum?. I mean what are you transitioning to or from?

@MistandMud

I got the feeling Jenny very much is aware of DSDs and was just saying that it's unfair to say that no woman has XY chromosomes. But it can be hard to pick up tone from text.

Unfair? Yes, it is bloody unfair when people insist on dragging in others who have stated across social media that they do not wish to be used as any kind of 'proof'.

Disordered sexual development is NOT a state of human being, it is, as the name suggests, a disorder of that state. A biological, genetic hiccup. They prove nothing, other than nature is a weird and wonderful thing!

Can I go back to leaving those who want to be left alone, alone now? Can we all?

Oh no, silly me. If that were at all possible then women would not be having any issue saying no and nobody would be asserting that human beings can change sex!

It's a funny spectrum with 99 percent at one end or another...... it would almost look like two massive blobs next to one another.

I have a friend who insists that trans women should be allowed into female spaces if they have “fully transitioned” but what does that actually mean? Or more importantly does she think it means they are now female?

If human beings could change sex, practically the only 'women' left would have started life as male, because all the natal women would have decided it's far easier to exist on this planet as male and have changed into men.

Franca, you ask good questions. And as far as evolution goes, the existence of DSDs fits in with evolution perfectly. In every generation of a species, there is a certain number of individuals born with anomalous features. Some are disadvantageous, but rarely, some are advantageous. For example, in an area where there was a lot of pollution, the few dark-feathered chicks of a white-feathered species of birds were more likely to survive. Eventually, more and more members of the group in that area would become dark-feathered. Perhaps over time, they would develop enough differences to breed with other birds and become a new species. Therefore, the fact that a few individuals in each generation are born with variations is accounted for. But that does not mean that people with DSDs can become a new "species." Because the very mechanism of reproduction is the one that also the one that creates sex. The fact is, men and women with DSDs are normal variants, they are just as much a part of the spectrum WITHIN each of our sexes, but it is rare for the variations on sexuality they have to result in improved reproduction, though this means nothing else in terms of them being valid, useful, and perfectly normal men and women.

@MissyB1

I have a friend who insists that trans women should be allowed into female spaces if they have “fully transitioned” but what does that actually mean? Or more importantly does she think it means they are now female?

And who gets to declare what the nature of "full transition" is and what it means?

The comparatively late age at which some cohorts transition mean that extensive surgery is unwise, particularly against the backdrop of cross-sex hormones and any associated changes to cardiovascular and other health.

Scott Newgent had a recent piece about surgery and it's a testament to some medical care that Scott survived:

The point is that, as Scott writes, "trans health doesn't really have a justiciable baseline." If a surgeon botches your gall bladder operation, there are criteria by which to judge him or her. Or mastectomies, a relatively simple and straightforward procedure.

But, although increasingly common nowadays, "bottom surgery," still relatively rare compared to most surgeries, is extremely complex and fraught with potential downsides, even those done by competent surgeons. Not all gender dysphoric children go on to bottom surgery as adults, but gender dysphoric adults are the only people who get bottom surgery.

thepostmillennial.com/transman-twitter-banned-for-speaking-against-gender-transition-of-children-fights-back?s=04

Anyone seen a decent definition of what it means to be female? By a transwoman? Nope. Me neither.

When anyone finally gets one, let us all know.

@Babdoc

MsTSwift, the analogy with God is not a good one, as millions of Christians have had direct experience of the presence of God, Jesus was a real person, and there are eye witness accounts of His resurrection, recorded by, amongst others, St Paul. Perhaps flat Earthers are a better comparison, where the belief is demonstrably false. You cannot disprove the existence of God.

Just to be clear. There is not one shred of evidence that any christian has had a "direct experience of the presence of God" (and I for one am more than happy to tell god-botherers that I genuinely don't believe that they even believe - I believe that many have convinced themselves that they do, but I can't do empathy in big enough quantities to honestly believe that anyone really believes in god.)

Equally there is not one shred of evidence that anyone believes that they have changed sex, or that anyone believes anyone can change sex.