For the Attention of Posters in the "bloody terf" thread

[PurgatoryOfPotholes]

So we can stop disrupting the OP's thread, and continue the discussion here.

Spooky was saying that how would you police femininity, as in looks. Who '' looks'' female enough (apologies if wrong spooky) That'd hurt women who aren't trans too, as no, you can't' '' always tell '' even if you convince yourself you can.

Well for a start I would hope that most trans women, being decent, respectful human beings, would not choose to enter a space which was female-only. So really the need to maintain female spaces by “policing”, whatever that is, should be low.

But that aside, the fact that some marginal cases may not be clear is not a valid reason to simply have no boundaries at all, any more than the fact that some underage kids sometimes get served and some overage adults are asked for id is a valid reason to get rid of a legal drinking age in bars.

You seem to have a very low opinion of trans people. You assume they all are incapable of respecting rules and social norms

The ONLY reason TW are noticed is because they are insisting on NOT following social norms and rules.
That is the SOLE reason they claim oppression.

Did you miss that? It's pretty crucial.

Trans people suffer SOLEY because they are not able to feel comfortable following social norms.

@OldCrone
You do realize many trans women are already officially recognized as women on their legal documents, right?

You know full well how deeply uncomfortable trans women are with being forced into that box

That’s cool. I, an actual woman, am uncomfortable being forced into the same box as people with a “female gender identity” so the “female gender identity” need to find a new box.

@NoNotMeNoSiree

who will not enter spaces they are not meant to.

Trans women are allowed to use women's toilets though, just like trans men are allowed to use the men's.
So not sure why you think they're not meant to.

Transwomen aren't supposed to use female spaces because they're male.

Trans women are allowed to use women's toilets though, just like trans men are allowed to use the men's.

Why would a person of the male sex think that they should be allowed to use a female toilet? What other facilities are they allowed to share with women? How about communal showers and changing rooms? How about spas where everyone is naked? How about prison cells?

That’s cool. I, an actual woman, am uncomfortable being forced into the same box as people with a “female gender identity” so the “female gender identity” need to find a new box.

Yes.

[quote SpookySeason77]@OldCrone
You do realize many trans women are already officially recognized as women on their legal documents, right?[/quote]
And?

@Blibbyblobby

Spooky was saying that how would you police femininity, as in looks. Who '' looks'' female enough (apologies if wrong spooky) That'd hurt women who aren't trans too, as no, you can't' '' always tell '' even if you convince yourself you can.

Well for a start I would hope that most trans women, being decent, respectful human beings, would not choose to enter a space which was female-only. So really the need to maintain female spaces by “policing”, whatever that is, should be low.

But that aside, the fact that some marginal cases may not be clear is not a valid reason to simply have no boundaries at all, any more than the fact that some underage kids sometimes get served and some overage adults are asked for id is a valid reason to get rid of a legal drinking age in bars.

Would it be disrespectful in your view for a trans woman with F on her ID to use women's bathroom?

Oh my god. Again with the boxes - the boxes which were never constructed by women and which women are trying to break down. Again with the hypocritical belief that people can't be forced into these boxes unless it is spooky doing the forcing. Such hideous entitlement. Such malicious aggressive misogyny. Spooky is not happy with people being pressured to repress a fundamental part of themselves unless those people think differently to spooky and such repression serves spooky's interests. Spooky knows perfectly well that women are deeply uncomfortable (e.g. with an identity being forced on them and sex-based protections being eroded) but spooky doesn't care about anyone other than spooky being uncomfortable.

You do realize many trans women are already officially recognized as women on their legal documents, right?

Very few. Only about 5000 gender recognition certificates have been issued.

Getting a headache from the pointless merry-go-round that is 'man and woman mean no more than a word, a pronoun' and 'man and woman mean so bloody much that the very word is a complete identity that trans people desperately want/dont want'.
Either the words are meaningful and powerful beyond just being convenient words or they're not.
Agreed that neither word should mean stereotypes. It should mean biology though. If it means neither what power do the words have at all anyway? Why mind so much what someone calls you?

And they are both sexes, so the proportion of MTF trans people with them is small.

@PleaseGoDontGoAgain

You seem to have a very low opinion of trans people. You assume they all are incapable of respecting rules and social norms

The ONLY reason TW are noticed is because they are insisting on NOT following social norms and rules.
That is the SOLE reason they claim oppression.

Did you miss that? It's pretty crucial.

Trans people suffer SOLEY because they are not able to feel comfortable following social norms.

You do realize the very same thing could've been said for gay people, especially when compulsory heterosexuality was one of the social norms?

Agreed that neither word should mean stereotypes. It should mean biology though. If it means neither what power do the words have at all anyway? Why mind so much what someone calls you?

Because it's a power thing.

[quote SpookySeason77]@OldCrone
You do realize many trans women are already officially recognized as women on their legal documents, right?[/quote]
NO not many. The number of GRCs issued has ZERO connection to the number of people claiming to be Trans.

You also realise legal documents are irrelevant because nobody asks for them.
As that is discriminatory.

But you know that. So do we.

And?

I'd have thought meant are legally recognised as female.
So trans people, either trans men or women, are perfectly allowed to be in the spaces they are recognised as, despite people on here saying they're not.

You do realize the very same thing could've been said for gay people, especially when compulsory heterosexuality was one of the social norms?

It still is.

It's disrespectful for any male to use a female only space, regardless of legal fictions.

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

Oh my god. Again with the boxes - the boxes which were never constructed by women and which women are trying to break down. Again with the hypocritical belief that people can't be forced into these boxes unless it is spooky doing the forcing. Such hideous entitlement. Such malicious aggressive misogyny. Spooky is not happy with people being pressured to repress a fundamental part of themselves unless those people think differently to spooky and such repression serves spooky's interests. Spooky knows perfectly well that women are deeply uncomfortable (e.g. with an identity being forced on them and sex-based protections being eroded) but spooky doesn't care about anyone other than spooky being uncomfortable.

I'm literally a woman. By your definition. I don't see how trans women also being women forces anything on me.

Would it be disrespectful in your view for a trans woman with F on her ID to use women's bathroom?

As only 5000 GRC are out there and without a GRC, any documentation with an F on it.doesn't change the bearer's legal sex .

It's not about being "trans", it's about being male.

The ONLY reason TW are noticed is because they are insisting on NOT following social norms and rules.

As a society, we have rules and social norms around single-sex spaces. Men and women are taught to respect these rules from an early age and it is widely understood that for reasons of privacy, modesty and safety, many women do not wish to share such spaces with males.
It's not difficult to live and dress as you like while continuing to respect the wishes of women and their need for single-sex spaces and services.

I'm literally a woman. By your definition. I don't see how trans women also being women forces anything on me.

So? You don't get to consent for me by proxy to males violating my privacy and my dignity. Why are you so invested in doing that?

@Ereshkigalangcleg

It's disrespectful for any male to use a female only space, regardless of legal fictions.

And here's the funny thing, no one cares what bigots consider disrespectful.

"Legal fictions" are legal realities. There's no reason why trans women who are legally recognized as women shouldn't be free to use women's bathrooms.