For the Attention of Posters in the "bloody terf" thread

[PurgatoryOfPotholes]

So we can stop disrupting the OP's thread, and continue the discussion here.

You seem to think including trans women "devalues" it somehow.

Since I have neither sex nor gender identity in common with transwomen, it makes no sense to put me in the same category as them. TW need to be categorised separately.

You already got my go ahead on this, lol. Make up your own word for yourselves if including trans women makes you think "woman" doesn't describe you.

Umm, just a parting thought. If we accept that we have now refined 'woman' to the degree that most (former) women don't feel able to call themselves women - why is it (former) women who need to come up with a new word? And if we did go down that route, what would stop former trans women (now 'women') feeling excluded from the new word? Are we not just kicking a problem down the line here?

@SpookySeason77
So to be clear your argument is, call Transwomen Women because the word woman means nothing.

Which BY DEFAULT means that the word Man means nothing.

So Transwomen are Men. It means nothing
So Women are not Transwomen. It means nothing.
Men are Men. Means nothing.
Women are women. Means nothing.
Transwomen EXIST but are not Transwomen because they are trees. It means nothing
Words mean nothing.

So why do you keep bleating on about nothing?
Start talking sense or fuck off

I'm literally female. Like, by your definition and everything. There's nothing you have for me to be envious of.

Well I am sure that you appreciate the sex based rights that your female sisters won for you. The equal pay legislation, the reproductive rights, the laws which now forbid men to abuse and violate us , the right not to be considered a man's property, the right to organise and campaign for our own very particular needs.
Removing women's ability to describe themselves as a group is the ultimate act of male oppression and is something no woman should be advocating.

And before you say you do not support enforcing femininity: how exactly do you think bathroom enforcement would work? Whether or not someone "looks female"? Do you think women's bathrooms are equipped with chromosome or gamete scanners?

I wasn't saying they should be actively restricted from using women's bathrooms. That'd require actively policing femininity, and unlike you, I do not support that.

Ah, I think I see where the misunderstanding is coming from. Women's spaces aren't for feminine people, they're for female people.

Male people don't belong there no matter how feminine they believe themselves to be.

Since I have neither sex nor gender identity in common with transwomen, it makes no sense to put me in the same category as them. TW need to be categorised separately.

Exactly. And they are, both in law and by most of the world, the tiny number of GRC holders aside.

Ah, I think I see where the misunderstanding is coming from. Women's spaces aren't for feminine people, they're for female people.

Yes, it's clearly causing some confusion.

@334bu

*I'm literally female. Like, by your definition and everything. There's nothing you have for me to be envious of.*

Well I am sure that you appreciate the sex based rights that your female sisters won for you. The equal pay legislation, the reproductive rights, the laws which now forbid men to abuse and violate us , the right not to be considered a man's property, the right to organise and campaign for our own very particular needs.
Removing women's ability to describe themselves as a group is the ultimate act of male oppression and is something no woman should be advocating.

How does including trans women distract from demanding for equal pay for women? Do you think trans women do not face workplace discrimination at all?

Do you not see that the very same forces pushing to strip away trans people's bodily autonomy are also the ones pushing to strip away reproductive freedom?

how exactly do you think bathroom enforcement would work?

TW are so nervous about going into women’s bathrooms. They’re just terrified. They dread it. The last thing they want is to stand out. It sends literal chills down their spine to think that they might make women uncomfortable, etc etc. Surely “enforcement” is not going to be an issue, provided third spaces are available?

You seem to think including Transwomen in the word Men devalues them somehow.

But you've posted repeatedly that the idea of words devaluing something is stupid, ridiculous and bigoted.

How can you insist something you do not believe in is true?

Oh silly me it's based on the sex of who is saying it.

@OldCrone

I wasn't saying they should be actively restricted from using women's bathrooms. That'd require actively policing femininity, and unlike you, I do not support that.

Ah, I think I see where the misunderstanding is coming from. Women's spaces aren't for feminine people, they're for female people.

Male people don't belong there no matter how feminine they believe themselves to be.

Spooky was saying that how would you police femininity, as in looks. Who '' looks'' female enough (apologies if wrong spooky) That'd hurt women who aren't trans too, as no, you can't' '' always tell '' even if you convince yourself you can.

Who mentioned "bathroom enforcement", except you? How very American. We'd simply like a social construct to be maintained in relation to toilets where males respect women enough not to violate our privacy and dignity. It's not the great argument you think it is that you're suggesting they will not do this.

@NoNotMeNoSiree

You seem to think including trans women devalues it somehow

Yes, that's what I don't get, why people feel mocked, or less of a woman just by the act of including trans women.
Trans women existing and going about their lives doesn't make me less of a woman.
I'm still one.

You think we want to retain single sex spaces because we feel mocked or less of a woman?!!!

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

You already got my go ahead on this, lol. Make up your own word for yourselves if including trans women makes you think "woman" doesn't describe you.

Umm, just a parting thought. If we accept that we have now refined 'woman' to the degree that most (former) women don't feel able to call themselves women - why is it (former) women who need to come up with a new word? And if we did go down that route, what would stop former trans women (now 'women') feeling excluded from the new word? Are we not just kicking a problem down the line here?

To be frank, I do not think GC cranks represent most women at all. And I don't think trans women would care to be included in GC crankery at all.

And before you say you do not support enforcing femininity: how exactly do you think bathroom enforcement would work? Whether or not someone "looks female"? Do you think women's bathrooms are equipped with chromosome or gamete scanners?

How do you think they have worked up till now? Most men respect women's boundaries and any man seen to enter a female only space runs the risk of being reported and removed from the space.

@SpookySeason77

And before you say you do not support enforcing femininity: how exactly do you think bathroom enforcement would work? Whether or not someone "looks female"? Do you think women's bathrooms are equipped with chromosome or gamete scanners?

No. We expect most people to be decent human beings who will not enter spaces they are not meant to. You seem to have a very low opinion of transwomen if you think that they'll try to enter women's spaces when they know that they shouldn't. You should give them some credit and assume that most of them will use the unisex spaces that you are going to campaign for.

And being female is not the same as being feminine.

'Femininity' has nothing to do with a) being a woman or b) access to women's spaces.

It's irrelevant.

Women's spaces are not for males. However much they are comfortable with their 'appearance'.

It's not about male people & their nonsense entitlement; women are saying no to you.

It's time to start hearing that NO.

To be frank, I think you have fuck all evidence to suggest that the trans cranks represent most women. And if trans women don't want to included in GC crankery, all is well. We will keep the word woman and you can use something else. Maybe...trans woman? Doesn't matter what really as unlike some people we have learnt the ability to respect others and will call you whatever you want so long as it is not using a word in a way which suggests that 'GC crank women' relate to the word woman in any way other than a statement of biological fact.

@SpookySeason77

And before you say you do not support enforcing femininity: how exactly do you think bathroom enforcement would work? Whether or not someone "looks female"? Do you think women's bathrooms are equipped with chromosome or gamete scanners?

You seem to have a very low opinion of trans people. You assume they all are incapable of respecting rules and social norms.

who will not enter spaces they are not meant to.

Trans women are allowed to use women's toilets though, just like trans men are allowed to use the men's.
So not sure why you think they're not meant to.

@SpookySeason77 Men who call themselves Transwomen (even though words mean nothing) are paid the same amount as men who do not call themselves Transwomen.

But companies can claim they are paying women the same amount as men.
While NOT paying women the same as men.

Do you need a diagram? I'm sure you can knock one up if you do.

To be frank, I do not think GC cranks represent most women at all. And I don't think trans women would care to be included in GC crankery at all.

Why would you think that most women wouldn't think that sex is immutable?

@PleaseGoDontGoAgain
"You seem to think including Transwomen in the word Men devalues them somehow."

Well yeah, it's denigrating, dysphoria-inducing transphobia. You know full well how deeply uncomfortable trans women are with being forced into that box. It's seriously little different than pressuring a gay man to marry a woman: you are pressuring someone to repress a fundamental part of themselves.

Yet you choose to do it anyway. How is it anything but outright malicious?

There should definitely be a 'lol' in this post, somewhere.