Need to vent work training- transgender talk

[AlwaysAWoman]

Today we had virtual training through work (Social Worker). We had some amazingly brilliant speakers, including a female doctor who raised very important issues relating to women and victim blame, mental health etc.

Following directly from this was a speaker on transgender issues. The speaker was listed as having female name and I was not surprised upon seeing them that they were, as they defined themselves, a 'transwoman'. (Although they did refer to themselves as woman as well).

This speaker consistently spoke about the rights of trans people, the importantance of being kind but it is protected by law etc. How NO ONE should feel scared to go in the toilet as trans people do.

Well, what the fuck about girls and womens rights to go to a toilet without a man in it? What about the girls and women who are survivors of rape and make violence and need female only spaces? Yet get called transphobic for calling this out?

What about OUR rights?

The speaker then went on to talk about how hormone intervention had been increased to 16 instead of 12 which was 'appalling' but 'luckily' it was back to being 12. Also little subtle sparky hints I imagine aimed at people who dislike the term 'cisgender'- 'it's Latin if you don't know'.

I can't really speak to my colleagues about this as have not yet identifies anyone like minded. I just feel angry.

@BilindaB

''You don’t understand why women don’t want to use toilets, changing rooms, dormitories and hospital wards that people with penises also use?''

Some women. I'm an adult human female and think trans women should use the facilities that match their gender. Because I on't consider them threat. And they already do, you realise? Always have.

Those facilities were set up on the basis of sex, not gender identity.

The fact that some women are fine with single sex spaces being opened up to people with penises does not give them the right to remove those spaces for other women who do consider people with penises to be a threat. We have plenty of evidence and experience that people with penises are a threat. What you “think” and “consider” do not override that.

Trans women may have used some of those spaces, yes, but the definition of a trans woman has been considerably expanded from old school transsexuals to accommodate cross dressers and self-identification without any kind of transition. That is a shame for old school transsexuals but many of us are now no longer willing to accept the newly-defined (under the Stonewall umbrella) trans woman in our spaces.

I meant they haven't been using them already, unlike toilets and changing rooms. But they are welcome to use them as far as I'm concerned. Christ this really sounds like saying black people should be able to use white people's facilities. 'But some women are scared of them' wouldn't wash would it?

@BilindaB

''You don’t understand why women don’t want to use toilets, changing rooms, dormitories and hospital wards that people with penises also use?''

Some women. I'm an adult human female and think trans women should use the facilities that match their gender. Because I on't consider them threat. And they already do, you realise? Always have.

Many women have a different opinion. Sex matters, and single sex spaces are our lawful right for a reason.

@BilindaB

''You don’t understand why women don’t want to use toilets, changing rooms, dormitories and hospital wards that people with penises also use?''

Some women. I'm an adult human female and think trans women should use the facilities that match their gender. Because I on't consider them threat. And they already do, you realise? Always have.

You're welcome to get undressed with whomever you choose. Crack on. I'll hold your coat.

You are not welcome to exclude other females from any provision because you demand they validate male people by doing something against their consent, comfort, privacy, dignity, faith or disability for your personal politics.

Because that is unjustifiable however you try to dress it up.

Go argue for third spaces and stop trying to make females obey male need.

@BilindaB

I meant they haven't been using them already, unlike toilets and changing rooms. But they are welcome to use them as far as I'm concerned. Christ this really sounds like saying black people should be able to use white people's facilities. 'But some women are scared of them' wouldn't wash would it?

Seriously, you’re going there? As a woman who isn’t white, let me tell you clearly that you are a racist. We are not to women what men are to women. We are not the binary of woman. Just stop sprouting this racist shit.

[quote shockedNeighbour]@FitAt50

I've been on Mumsnet for years and have not, as yet, identified any posts that are anti-trans. I have, however, seen HUNDREDS of posts from women concerned about the erosion of women's sex based rights. IMO they have valid concerns.[/quote]
It's a cesspit, a cispit, if you will. I challenge it when I have the energy but you just get piled on by angry women.

I don't give two shits who is pissing in the cubicle next to me and most women I know under the age of forty don't either. Luckily the world is changing, despite the attitudes displayed here.

@BilindaB

I meant they haven't been using them already, unlike toilets and changing rooms. But they are welcome to use them as far as I'm concerned. Christ this really sounds like saying black people should be able to use white people's facilities. 'But some women are scared of them' wouldn't wash would it?

I was just curious as to why you made the distinction

Ive said nothing about my opinions on it….so no linking to ‘white peoples facilities’ in my mind

Interesting that you make that jump though…

Seriously, you’re going there? As a woman who isn’t white, let me tell you clearly that you are a racist. We are not to women what men are to women. We are not the binary of woman. Just stop sprouting this racist shit.

This!

If you think it's like "black people should be able to use white people's facilities." I can only assume you are in favour of all facilities being mixed sex at all times.

Because where separate facilities based on skin colour was ended the end result was not black and white facilities and you could choose which you identified as. It was removal of segregation by skin colour.

So if you want to stop segregation by sex, you need to stop it for everyone. So one changing room, one set of toilets etc etc.

Maybe you can see that this isn't actually a good analogy at all.

Unfortunately some women will always be dick panderers. For the rest of us, single sex spaces are extremely important and they should remain single sex.

I don't give two shits who is pissing in the cubicle next to me and most women I know under the age of forty don't either. Luckily the world is changing, despite the attitudes displayed here

Funny that, because I work in a university which has resisted making its facilities mixed sex because their research showed that many students don’t want that.

Apologies gcacademic

I missed your post…💐

It's a cesspit, a cispit, if you will. I challenge it when I have the energy but you just get piled on by angry women.

Try listening to their concerns and issues if you're into inclusion and diversity and equality. How about a bit of #bekind? It's not just for males any more!

I don't give two shits who is pissing in the cubicle next to me and most women I know under the age of forty don't either. Luckily the world is changing, despite the attitudes displayed here.

Have a cookie. Well done.

Now would you like to think about other women in the world and that they matter as well as you? Even the ones, gasp, who don't always put the needs of male people first?

The sheer unpleasantness, rudeness, dismissiveness and absolute inequality of values that marks the sexism of this position does your argument no favours.

I don't give two shits who is pissing in the cubicle next to me and most women I know under the age of forty don't either.

Nice bit of ageism there.

So far we have racism and ageism. All aimed at women declaring their boundaries.

Luckily the world is changing, despite the attitudes displayed here.

I hate to burst your illusion. It might be true in your echo chamber but it is not true of the wider society.

But crack on with the ad hominem attacks without providing any substance.

I don't give two shits who is pissing in the cubicle next to me and most women I know under the age of forty don't either. Luckily the world is changing, despite the attitudes displayed here.

What about women over 40? Doesn't how they feel count?

[quote Stellaris22]@FitAt50 if stay away from the feminism boards sadly. You’ll soon find yourself being convinced that pro women isn’t anti trans and that these views are acceptable rather than clearly being intolerant.

Don’t bother slating this reply, I won’t be reading the thread![/quote]
Own goal perhaps? Seems to say that you can either be pro woman or pro trans.

I always think these allegations of 'intolerance' are so infantile. It's like the poster can't even understand the definition of intolerance. I expect that they probably won't read the thread as highly arrogant people never do feel the need to consider other points of view - no point when you literally care about no-one but yourself anyway.

@Zebradanio

I don't give two shits who is pissing in the cubicle next to me and most women I know under the age of forty don't either. Luckily the world is changing, despite the attitudes displayed here.

What about women over 40? Doesn't how they feel count?

Yes but in forty to fifty years there will be significantly fewer of you and society will hopefully have advanced past transphobia.

@BilindaB

I meant they haven't been using them already, unlike toilets and changing rooms. But they are welcome to use them as far as I'm concerned. Christ this really sounds like saying black people should be able to use white people's facilities. 'But some women are scared of them' wouldn't wash would it?

@BilindaB - I have the perfect solution: you use men's facilties as you are comfortable sharing with men. Women who aren't use women's facilities.

I'm an adult human female and think trans women should use the facilities that match their gender. Because I on't consider them threat.

Maybe Bilinda will finally produce some evidence as to how the rate of comitting voilent and sex crime decreases with transition males?

No?

Then it is the same old ‘I am cool and down with it and you are just uncool’ argument that lacks any empathy for those females who cannot use the toilets with males for whatever reason. And prioritises the needs of males over females.

It is honestly like WiSpa never happened.

" don't give two shits who is pissing in the cubicle next to me and most women I know under the age of forty don't either. Luckily the world is changing, despite the attitudes displayed here."

So some people don't give two shits about women who need single-sex facilities for religious and cultural reasons? How progressive.

tell you what might help these debates

1. a definition of woman if you believe it is not about your chromosomes?
2. an explanation of why we would need any spaces segregated by some ephemeral concept of identity?

BTW I don't care who is pissing in a cubicle next to mine. I don't, however, feel comfortable coming out of the cubicle with blood on my hands after a messy period change and finding a man standing there. I also don't feel comfortable coming out of a ladies loo and finding a man standing there at all. He may well not be a risk - most men aren't - but as I have no way of knowing which man is a risk and which isn't, I will, of course, be on high alert. My sister was raped by a man in a ladies loo. Well, it was the 80's so he was a man. Nowadays I would not know whether he was a man or not without asking him his identity. He did, however, have a dick and he did use it as a weapon.

Yes but in forty to fifty years there will be significantly fewer of you and society will hopefully have advanced past transphobia

I'm not a woman. Nor am I over 40. There will be plenty of people who still care about safeguarding in 40 to 50 years time. I expect many younger people will agree with this position as they age, even if they don't get it yet. It's not transphobic to be concerned about safeguarding. I doubt society will be wiping out sex based rights for a bunch of people who think their rights can over rule everyone else's.

''Seriously, you’re going there? As a woman who isn’t white, let me tell you clearly that you are a racist. ''

If you are assuming I am white, I'm not.

Bilinda, do you believe that conflating sex and gender can be transphobic?

Yes but in forty to fifty years there will be significantly fewer of you and society will hopefully have advanced past transphobia.

I think society will have advanced to the stage that some under 40's will look back with horror at the naivety of their younger self. They will realise that losing the language to discuss and track discrimination was not a win. They will see that rigidly attaching a narrow concept of identity to biological realities is not freeing for anyone. In a nutshell, I think some of them will grow up, develop an ability to engage in rational debate and start caring about the plight of women in, for example, Afghanistan more than their own need to present themselves as woke.