Really fucking annoyed by another entitled man

[Justreallyannoyed]

I’m a midwife. I answered the phone in a busy clinic today to an irate man. Apparently he’s applied online to volunteer in the maternity department and NOT HEARD ANYTHING. It’s NOT GOOD ENOUGH. He’s phoned THREE TIMES and no one is getting back to him. I explained that we don’t deal with volunteers ourselves and all the placements are dealt with by the volunteer office. This was OUTRAGEOUS apparently and he’s been passed FROM PILLAR TO POST and he just wants to know when he can come in to the Maternity Department and start volunteering!

I gave him the number of the volunteer office but I stupidly didn’t get his name. He was horrible and rude and our current volunteering vacancies are on the postnatal ward. What kind of man muscles his way in to the postnatal ward???? Especially when he has no expertise or experience to offer at all. The hall of him being furious because we aren’t being quick enough at facilitating his unfettered access to postnatal women and babies…..

Anyway I actually got a horrible creeped out feeling from him so I am going to call the volunteer office tomorrow and discuss. But just another entitled man throwing his weight around. Yuck.

@Empressofthemundane

This cuts into the women’s safe spaces argument. No privacy, dignity or sisterhood will be allowed for women anymore. This guys feelings are now more important than those of all the new mothers.

Maternity wards should absolutely be safe spaces but they've never been female only and won't ever be unless you also want to ban all male partners and family members from visiting, not to mention outlawing any male nurses, doctors, porters, cleaners, admin staff etc from ever setting foot in there. Hell, I've even heard nightmare stories about women going through childbirth only to look down and find to their horror a nasty male has sneaked into the maternity ward in their uterus and then come out of their vagina.

I volunteer as a breastfeeding peer supporter on a maternity ward, we had to go through a fairly rigorous (for volunteers) recruitment process with references etc and be known by the service already. We are regularly dbs checked and have to do regular supervisions and all of the safeguarding training etc that all hospital staff have to do. The contact from the hospital is close and ongoing, it's an unusual type of volunteer role but very closely monitored. We have been back on the wards for a while now

I believe I've already answered that question above.

To go further though, the fact is that volunteering is fundamentally a form of self gratification in the sense the person through giving their time/effort for free gets to feel good about themselves for doing so or gets experience/exposure that provides them some benefit such as CV experience.

That's not a criticism in the sense that in most cases it's a fair balance that they put in to the experience as much as they receive from it.

Where it's inappropriate is where the gratification revived by the volunteer is at the expense of the people/service they are supposed to be helping.

As a final point I'd also point out that in respect of even male HCP's women have the right to request a female doctor/midwife if they choose to do so or have a female HCP present during an intimate examination.

@BreadInCaptivity. Volunteers work throughout hospitals in wards other than their own sex. They're not involved in personal care, they don't look after patients and they're not there all day. In most wards, that I know of anyway - so I accept this is slightly anecdotal, they just come in in the afternoon during visiting time really. So a (male) volunteer is only on the ward when families visiting are, which will consist of men, who would be strangers to the other women. Everyone knows when visiting times are so they expect strangers around.
Obviously unexpected, unwelcome personal events happen in hospital. But they also do in all the other wards which are often mixed sex and where the volunteers are mixed sex. Volunteers are trained to deal with this sensitively and not intrude - just like visitors do. Well, like human beings do. If a volunteer shows they don't have the aptitude for it, they wouldn't be posted onto a ward.
I'm not defending this man and his attitude. I'm just saying that condemning all men as being creepy because they'd like to volunteer with babies is unfair.

[quote madisonbridges]@BreadInCaptivity. Volunteers work throughout hospitals in wards other than their own sex. They're not involved in personal care, they don't look after patients and they're not there all day. In most wards, that I know of anyway - so I accept this is slightly anecdotal, they just come in in the afternoon during visiting time really. So a (male) volunteer is only on the ward when families visiting are, which will consist of men, who would be strangers to the other women. Everyone knows when visiting times are so they expect strangers around.
Obviously unexpected, unwelcome personal events happen in hospital. But they also do in all the other wards which are often mixed sex and where the volunteers are mixed sex. Volunteers are trained to deal with this sensitively and not intrude - just like visitors do. Well, like human beings do. If a volunteer shows they don't have the aptitude for it, they wouldn't be posted onto a ward.
I'm not defending this man and his attitude. I'm just saying that condemning all men as being creepy because they'd like to volunteer with babies is unfair.[/quote]
I didn't condemn all men.

I said men who who volunteer to work in an environment where women are obviously very vulnerable typify those who shouldn't be there.

It's a very different scenario to men volunteering on a mixed sex general ward for example.

I think this is decidedly odd
Unless perhaps he wants to retrain as a midwife
But otherwise why maternity specifically?
I know we have volunteers at our hospital who do stuff like show people the way who are lost, push wheelchairs and do the tea and newspaper rounds in wards but I think it's centrally co-ordinated and you can't request a specific ward.

However I do also recall that when I was in the post natal ward for quite a long time whilst DD was in SCBU a lovely lady volunteered there who was a beautician and offered to do nails and hair or a massage for free or for a donation to the ward. She did it because her daughter had been born very early and was acted for there and she wanted to give back in some way. I really appreciated that and it was a lovely bit of kindness at a very hard time for me.
People volunteering for the right reason I would have to support.

I can't think of anything more worrying than an angry shouty man that feels that he's so entitled to volunteer on a maternity ward that he shouts at staff about it.

@MrsSkylerWhite

Am I the only one surprised that there are volunteers of any description on a maternity ward?

Nope, this has made my jaw drop tbh.

Nah, don’t like the sound of that at all.

@LonginesPrime. I have sympathy with what you say. But are you from the UK? If so, have you been in the position of ringing up and dealing with the NHS on the phone? I'm talking pre-covid. I have 2 elderly parents forcehom I end up havinh to chase up just about everything. Practically every time I ring, someone says, "what a coincidence, I was just looking at your mums name." Of course you were. You're shoved from pillar to post; told to ring back; told they can't do anything because they don't have the file; they need to ask a or b or c; they've just covering; they're new because so and so has left. Worst of all, they say, I'll action that for you. Only for you to ring back a month later and no one knows anything about it.

So, although I can't comment on this man or what his personality is like, I can comment on what it's like to be pushed to the end of your tether by being given the runaround. And I will confess that there have been occasions where I, too, have spoken a little bit more harshly than I intended to when someone says, its nothing to do with me, or, even worse, tells me to ring the number I first rang an hour ago.

Sorry this is on Feminism chat. I should be on NHS rant chat. @

This man sounds awful, and entitled.

On the other side of the argument, I find unless you're pushy, assertive and advocate for yourself, you get absolutely nowhere with the NHS.

If you're polite and calm they just fob you off. Sorry but this is my experience.

I said men who who volunteer to work in an environment where women are obviously very vulnerable typify those who shouldn't be there.

In my experience volunteers want to help. But saying that men who volunteer in maternity services are the very kind who shouldn't work there is equal to saying that men who train to work in maternity services and are therefore looking to help women are the type that shouldn't be there too. Which is nonsense.

To be clear. I don't care if male volunteers are banned from maternity services or indeed if male staff are banned from working in maternity services. It doesn't bother the axis of my world one bit. But the idea that a guy wanted to volunteer in maternity services and who is getting frustrated at being given the run-around (in his opinion) should be branded as a creep and as having something untoward about them, is really unfair.

So, although I can't comment on this man or what his personality is like, I can comment on what it's like to be pushed to the end of your tether by being given the runaround.

madisonbridges, yes I'm in the UK, and have 3 DC with complex needs so I do appreciate what it's like chasing NHS staff for updates, action points, etc and I do sympathise with your situation.

But I think there's a big difference between (1) the frustration at being given the runaround when you're concerned for an ailing loved one who needs medical help and where the NHS staff have a duty of care to them, and (2) the frustration at being given the runaround when you have applied to volunteer in a hospital.

When someone is ill or has a sick relative, they have entitlement to a certain standard of medical care. Obviously, the NHS can't always meet these standards, and is natural to be frustrated in those situations, where you're entitled to a better service than the one you receive.

This caller had no entitlement to be given a volunteer post or to be granted access to the post-natal ward. He is not at risk of suffering any detriment if he does not get a volunteer post for which the hospital would be responsible for. So his sense of entitlement was inappropriate and misplaced, whereas yours when advocating for your parents was not.

I do share your exasperation about the endless chasing and phone calls though - at times, it feels like full-time job in itself!

The desperation is very worrying.

I wonder if a PP had a point about him having an ex he is trying to gain access too because the alternative is terrifying.....

In my experience volunteers want to help. But saying that men who volunteer in maternity services are the very kind who shouldn't work there is equal to saying that men who train to work in maternity services and are therefore looking to help women are the type that shouldn't be there too. Which is nonsense.

This is simply a version of NAMALT.

There is a vast difference between trained male HCP's and volunteers. Especially men who specifically want to volunteer in a section of the hospital where women are arguably and routinely at their most vulnerable. If he wants to help then why not in any ward? Why specifically maternity? It's NOT (to repeat) about being interested in babies. It's about supporting new mothers who by virtue of their sex and having just birthed are very, very vulnerable.

I'm glad your experiences of volunteers is positive. Sadly it's not universal.

That's why we have safeguarding and why it's so important.

It's why when women object to men in circumstances such as this our voices should be heard.

The fact that there are other issues such as visiting partners taking the piss/being intrusive etc is just whataboutary.

To me, the issue isn't that he is male, is that he's irate, shouty, has very poor communication skills and has chosen to berate the OP for something outside of her control and not even her department to deal with.

As an aside, I've been going through the (very lengthy) process to become an Independent Visitor for a child in care since April of this year. It's October now and I've completed all the checks and training and am yet to hear about a match. That's reminded me I need to send a polite email enquiring if there is any news yet.

What I won't do it phone up a social work team and start berating the (unrelated) staff there. Were I to do that I'd consider my application to be in jeopardy.

I don't remotely consider myself to have 'been given the runaround', things take time when you apply for volunteer roles with busy organisations.

@BreadInCaptivity When you apply to be a volunteer, you fill in areas that you'd like to work in and the areas where you feel you could be helpful. Maybe this man feels like he could be helpful in this area. I don't know and you don't know so both of us are just guessing about that. I can only repeat that volunteers don't do hands on personal care of patients, unless, I suppose, they have certain training in some area.

Of course safeguarding is important and all patients in hospital are at risk of being very vulnerable. There is an ongoing case at my hospital of murder and 2 rapes in the stroke unit. Not by a volunteer but by a medic. So actually your argument about there being a vast difference between trained HCPs,and volunteers doesn't hold water. A patient is much more likely to be in danger from a worker than a volunteer. Thankfully still very rare in either case.

If the volunteers office doesn't allow male volunteers in the maternity ward, that should have been written on the form so everyone knows that upfront. I don't think it's unreasonable to not allow men to work there. On the other hand I don't think a man is automatically a creep and ip to no good because they do want to work there.

Sorry, I have no idea what your last paragraph is about.

@Justreallyannoyed

The fetch meals and drinks to women who can’t get up to get their own meals. They get women to fill out feedback forms. Other bits and bobs.

Stuff that nurses should be doing, then. Absolutely disgraceful that random people are allowed near vulnerable women like that, who expect that they are in a safe place with medically qualified staff.

@LonginesPrime. Yes, I sort of disappeared off into a rant about the NHS there. Lol. But it's not really about that.

My initial post made it clear that there are two separate points. 1) should men be able to volunteer to work on maternity wards? And 2) should this particular man be allowed to?

I, personally, don't see a big problem about men working/volunteering on a MW but that would be down to the trust. But if the trust allows a man to work on the ward, should this man be allowed to?

As I said, no one wants to work with a rude person and I did say the op should tell the volunteer office. It shouldn't be that difficult to identify him. But he might have been pushed to the limit by the NHS system - particularly if he comes from a country with an efficient, functioning system. The fact that he has been judged as a creep, up to good, seeking out an ex to further abuse and even that the police should do a phone search is so over the top. We just don't know his circumstances. It's always much better to be polite but not being polite in certain circumstances doesn't automatically make you a bad person.

disgraceful that random people are allowed near vulnerable women like that, who expect that they are in a safe place with medically qualified staff.

Like the Manchester nurse accused of murdering 8 babies. Like the staff at mine accused of raping and murdering patients.

I get what you're saying but times are changing. Hospitals depend on volunteers and volunteers do a lot of good.

@Justreallyannoyed

I will definitely call them tomorrow. I’m so annoyed I didn’t get his name but he has a very identifiable overseas accent and I can’t think there are many men volunteering for maternity. I’m not sure if there will be much they can do “random midwife found you rude and creepy” but I can hopefully have a quiet word.

I would be tempted to email them your concerns and how rude he was. Make sure there a paper trail so if they're silly enough to take him on and if something happens, you'll be able to show that your concerns were ignored. They won't be able to pretend that conversation never happened to your senior management.

I'm so sick of nasty, entitled men like this getting access to vulnerable women and kids in the name of 'eQuAliTy'🤪. Makes my blood boil.

Definitely raise his conduct with the volunteering office, OP.

[quote madisonbridges]@BreadInCaptivity When you apply to be a volunteer, you fill in areas that you'd like to work in and the areas where you feel you could be helpful. Maybe this man feels like he could be helpful in this area. I don't know and you don't know so both of us are just guessing about that. I can only repeat that volunteers don't do hands on personal care of patients, unless, I suppose, they have certain training in some area.

Of course safeguarding is important and all patients in hospital are at risk of being very vulnerable. There is an ongoing case at my hospital of murder and 2 rapes in the stroke unit. Not by a volunteer but by a medic. So actually your argument about there being a vast difference between trained HCPs,and volunteers doesn't hold water. A patient is much more likely to be in danger from a worker than a volunteer. Thankfully still very rare in either case.

If the volunteers office doesn't allow male volunteers in the maternity ward, that should have been written on the form so everyone knows that upfront. I don't think it's unreasonable to not allow men to work there. On the other hand I don't think a man is automatically a creep and ip to no good because they do want to work there.

Sorry, I have no idea what your last paragraph is about.[/quote]
@madisonbridges And do the women have any say in any of these? Does anyone care what they think or feel, or are they just infantalised, their concerns just dismissed, and told they gave to put up with it (like we've never heard about that happening to pregnant women in hospitals before).

@ChubbyK

I can't think of anything more worrying than an angry shouty man that feels that he's so entitled to volunteer on a maternity ward that he shouts at staff about it.

@ChubbyK

Indeed. I would say that one of the things they would have to show is the ability to deal with stress, to remain calm, to be polite in difficult circumstances. If one of the mothers says something to him he doesn't like, is he going to behave like this towards them as well?

If he wants to volunteer so much, I'm sure there a position for him attending to the gardens outside and odd jobs the caretaker needs doing. Far, far way from vulnerable women hopefully.