"men dressing in women's clothes is offensive...

[newrubylane]

... to the LGBT community."

www.worcesternews.co.uk/news/19657416.st-richards-warn-men-dressing-womens-clothes-fundraiser-offensive/

I don't even know where to start.

I don't understand how wearing drag would make people give you money for charity?

It's just a vehicle to get noticed, I have seen people dressed as wombles, power rangers and Walt Disney characters as a part of their charity stunt. Watch the London marathon and you will see Darth Vader and wonder women raising money. My rugby team raises money for a spinal injuries clinic, we have dressed as WWF wrestlers in the past, it's purile, childish and not very high brow but people do stop you to donate and/or have their photos taken with you.

What about pantomimes?

@Signalbox

Isn’t this one of the things that many feminists and trans activists agree on? There’s loads of threads on here about how much people hate drag.

Well yes. There is a fair amount of hypocrisy going on here in the efforts of some to say it's all just good fun.

Drag is offensive because it takes the sex role stereotypes used to oppress women and makes them a joke for men to perform. It’s teeny waists and big fake boobs and fish net stockings because women are sex objects for men. It’s big fake lashes and layers of make up and massively over the top hair, because women are so superficial.

Contrasted to Nick Wire or Kurt Cobain wearing skirts on stage because why shouldn’t men subvert sex role stereotypes. Like the Madonna song says the standard is that girls can be a tomboy because stereotypical male things are cool so she’s levelling up, but it’s seen as embarrassing for men to level down to women’s clothing. And these guys getting on with it because they want to and as if it’s nothing more than putting on clothes they like-because it isn’t -turns that on it’s head.

Men dressing as women for humour is fine if it’s not making fun of the sex role stereotypes used to oppress us. Like Tom Holland being Rhianna in lip sync battle- that’s fucking brilliant, as is the guy being missy Elliot. Neither are trying to pretend they look like women, neither is making fun of the actual woman, neither is dismissing or making a joke of how damaging sex role stereotypes are for women and girls. And it’s seriously funny. I highly recommend lip sync battles to decompress from the bollocks of life.

@TreXX

Actually I've always felt uncomfortable with rugby lads capering about in dresses for larks.

They're not exercising sartorial creativity and freedom, they're poking fun at eachother being dressed like a woman.

Like being a woman is the worst thing they can think of. They see it as degrading.

I'm sure they don't think that deeply about it of course.

Exactly.

It's so often said there shouldn't be "women’s clothes" and "men's clothes" just clothes which anyone can wear.

The dresses being worn aren't comic in themselves so why is it so hilarious that men are wearing them?

And it’s seriously funny

What's "seriously funny" about the men in the photograph in the opening post?

@DedalusBloom

My experience of rugby type lads in dresses has usually been that it's totes hilare for them to do this because the VERY THOUGHT of heterosexual manly men being perceived as "lesser" by dressing in women's clothes is in itself intrinsically funny. I mean to do that you're practically GAY, right? And how can I be gay when I'm such a virile manly man? Etc etc etc yawn yawn.

Guessing you don't have much experience then?

@MrsAvocet

Sorry, no time to RTFT so probably repeating what others have said much more eloquently than I can, but I don't think this is straightforward. A men wearing a dress is not intrinsically offensive to anyone - no more than a woman wearing, say, a trouser suit. But it most certainly can be. It isn't the act of wearing a dress in itself though, it's more about attitudes and behaviour whilst doing so, which in this case we don't have much information about. So we can't really judge, but it isn't beyond the bounds of possibility that it could be offensive. But what leaps out at me is that for all the years this event has been going on, the charity don't seem to have considered the possibility that it might offend or demean women. It is only an issue now that it could upset "the LGBT community". Which, let's be honest, really means that it might upset a very small subset of men. So men potentially offending women = complete non issue, whereas men potentially upsetting some other men = big problem that must be stopped immediately. Now there's a surprise...

But what leaps out at me is that for all the years this event has been going on, the charity don't seem to have considered the possibility that it might offend or demeanwomen. It is only an issue now that it could upset

What leaps out at me is that the point you are making has been made before on this forum. But now that it's the prospect of the LGBT community being offended it's now just good clean fun.

@KimikosNightmare

And it’s seriously funny

What's "seriously funny" about the men in the photograph in the opening post?

I was referring to lip sync battles. Tom Holland as Rhianna, Channing Tatum as Beyoncé or as Elsa, the guy being Missy Elliot.

It’s funny the same way the women impersonating men on lip sync battles is funny. Jenna Tatum Dewar is the best.

The obviously don’t look a bit like the people they are impersonating. Dancing around as if they are then, with bucket loads of enthusiasm, is a lot like kids putting on the same kind of performance.

But none of the men are performing drag, none pad bras or use corsets to pretend they have female bodies, none of their performances are sexualised, none of them are mocking the sex role stereotypes women are oppressed by. Drag does.

@Tanith

Dresses is an improvement, imo.

My brother’s rugby team used to strip every stitch off and eat each other’s underpants.

Actually eat them?

@KimikosNightmare

And it’s seriously funny

What's "seriously funny" about the men in the photograph in the opening post?

The opening photo looks like pantomime. Which has always been meant to mock and had sexual undertones.

Not anything like lip sync battles fun that isn’t about demeaning anyone.

@Whatsnewpussyhat

But he was complaining about Harry Styles wearing dresses the other day. Billy has a right to Harry doesn't apparently

Weird isn't it. Only 'some' males are allowed to wear dresses now.

I don't know who either of these people are (beyond recent google search) but, yes, it's very weird that the right to wear dresses is suddenly a thing. Nobody mention kilts or thobes, eh?

So let me get this straight. Women have have to put up with men in drag for years taking the mic out of them. But now that the LBQT community takes offense it’s different!

@Tal45

Dressing up is fun - that's the bottom line isn't it? I've dressed up as Father Christmas before, I've dressed up as a male footballer (so I could wear a mullet) I've dressed up wearing fake moustaches. No one HAS to find it funny, no one HAS to donate to their cause - but that doesn't change the fact that men often look inherently ridiculous in women's clothes because they don't fit them at all well, they have hairy chests sticking out of them and they often choose the most hideous things they can find at the back of a charity shop and put their make up on really, really, badly.

Personally I think even Harry Styles looks ridiculous in a dress and if he can't pull it off then probably no bloke can. You really need tits and hips to make a dress look good IMO - which is why I don't wear dresses either, other things look far better on me.

Nicky Wire, Kurt Cobain, David Bowie and Lou Reed all look fucking hot in dresses. They all knew they were men though.

I think we should do male drag. Dress over the top in a tuxedo with a comedy moustache and you know how drag makes women out to be bitchy and snidely… make men ridiculously incompetent like babies… do skits where they moan about not being able to work the washing machine and jumbling up lights and darks yet able to hold down a senior management position.

Oh hang on that’s not exaggerating 🤣

But none of the men are performing drag, none pad bras or use corsets to pretend they have female bodies, none of their performances are sexualised, none of them are mocking the sex role stereotypes women are oppressed by. Drag does

I know you were referring to lip sync.

I'm still not seeing what is so funny about these men wearing dresses. There seems to be an awful lot of hair splitting going on to say this is fine, whereas in the past on here the assumption about there being anything inherently funny about a man dressing up as a woman is rejected.

The only difference I can see is that the objection is made on LGBT grounds.

Nicky Wire, Kurt Cobain, David Bowie and Lou Reed all look fucking hot in dresses.
They all knew they were men though

Yes certainly no doubt that the perennial hero on here that is Bowie knew he was a man. It's insulting to the other 3 to lump him in with him. I've not heard anything about the other 3 behaving in such a manly way as Bowie.

@KimikosNightmare

But none of the men are performing drag, none pad bras or use corsets to pretend they have female bodies, none of their performances are sexualised, none of them are mocking the sex role stereotypes women are oppressed by. Drag does

I know you were referring to lip sync.

I'm still not seeing what is so funny about these men wearing dresses. There seems to be an awful lot of hair splitting going on to say this is fine, whereas in the past on here the assumption about there being anything inherently funny about a man dressing up as a woman is rejected.

The only difference I can see is that the objection is made on LGBT grounds.

It’s not that they are wearing dresses that is funny and more than Jenna Tatum Dewan wearing ‘men’s clothes’ is funny on it. It’s the whole performance, the over enthusiastic acting out of the singers dance. Same way it’s incredibly funny to watch her perform a similar dance to pony, that was the song her husband danced to in Magic Mike (never seen the film but have watched the dance clip followed by her one). The same way Ricky Martin putting on the Kevon Bacon’s red jacket and dancing to footloose is hilarious.

Any one of these people walked down the street dressed up this way it isn’t funny (nor especially offensive either) but playing the role is within the dance/song. It’s childlike humour, and it’s fun to laugh along with them having so much fun. Pulls me out of my own head, where I spend way too much time worrying as it is.

@KimikosNightmare

*Nicky Wire, Kurt Cobain, David Bowie and Lou Reed all look fucking hot in dresses. They all knew they were men though*

Yes certainly no doubt that the perennial hero on here that is Bowie knew he was a man. It's insulting to the other 3 to lump him in with him. I've not heard anything about the other 3 behaving in such a manly way as Bowie.

Meaning?

@KimikosNightmare

But none of the men are performing drag, none pad bras or use corsets to pretend they have female bodies, none of their performances are sexualised, none of them are mocking the sex role stereotypes women are oppressed by. Drag does

I know you were referring to lip sync.

I'm still not seeing what is so funny about these men wearing dresses. There seems to be an awful lot of hair splitting going on to say this is fine, whereas in the past on here the assumption about there being anything inherently funny about a man dressing up as a woman is rejected.

The only difference I can see is that the objection is made on LGBT grounds.

Well, I think there are varying views on this thread about whether men dressing as women for laughs is offensive or not, and whether it depends on context. But the point here is 1) there's an assumption that women are ok with it, and 2) it raises the question, why would anyone suggest it might be offensive to "the LGBT community"?

@YetAnotherSpartacus

Took me a while but I think the point was that Bowie did the very manly thing of sleeping with at least one under age girl, whereas we have no evidence that Wire, Cobain or Reed engaged in such abusive behaviour.

@BlueBrush
Police "what have we got here? Are you lads mocking women? Don't let things get out of hand and have a great night!"
Rugby player in dress "nah, we're mocking trans women"
Police "the lot of you. Nicked."

[quote LaetitiaASD]@YetAnotherSpartacus

Took me a while but I think the point was that Bowie did the very manly thing of sleeping with at least one under age girl, whereas we have no evidence that Wire, Cobain or Reed engaged in such abusive behaviour.[/quote]
Was not aware and it wasn’t the least bit clear.

@draintheblood
It wasn't clear, it took me a while and I had to google "Bowie sexual assault" to get confirmation that he'd been accused. And I might have misunderstood of course.