"men dressing in women's clothes is offensive...

[newrubylane]

... to the LGBT community."

www.worcesternews.co.uk/news/19657416.st-richards-warn-men-dressing-womens-clothes-fundraiser-offensive/

I don't even know where to start.

@Shedbuilder

I'm struck by the fact that although they've been doing this for more than 18 years they've only raised £40,000.

Makes me wonder whether people don't contribute much because they don't find men in frocks funny (for all the reasons upthread). One might wonder why the rugby club still do it when they raise so little by doing it.

That is really mean-spirited. All credit to them for raising in excess of £2000 a year for charity.

Yeah I don't think £2k a year for charity is bad going, be keen to know how much the poster criticising the amount has raised.

Males who call themselves women being offended by other males in dresses because it points out the obvious.
Wearing feminine clothes or does not change your sex.

@ArabellaScott

I googled Billy Porter. That man is far better dressed than most people. His outfits are amazing.

But he was complaining about Harry Styles wearing dresses the other day. Billy has a right to Harry doesn't apparently 😟

@TreXX

Actually I've always felt uncomfortable with rugby lads capering about in dresses for larks.

They're not exercising sartorial creativity and freedom, they're poking fun at eachother being dressed like a woman.

Like being a woman is the worst thing they can think of. They see it as degrading.

I'm sure they don't think that deeply about it of course.

I don't think it usually about mocking women (or that it is inherently about mocking women), although of course some men might mock women when dressing up as them - rather it is about transgressing boundaries of what is acceptable for a man to do. I think it is freeing for men and breaks down the limitations imposed on their sex in a fun and safe way. Transgressing societal norms is difficult for many people and doing it as a group can be fun.

If woman all decided to "dress- up as men", say in suits and ties, then when out they might similarly might feel a rush from transgressing societal norms and drawing attention to themselves.

I think that the denigration of "womanly things" as being somehow lesser is a separate problem. I think it is possible to dress up as the opposite sex and have fun with it, including taking the mick, and for it to be taken as such. I cannot see any reason to be offended by it.

As a member of the LGBT community, these idiots are causing me literal violence by talking on my behalf

But he was complaining about Harry Styles wearing dresses the other day. Billy has a right to Harry doesn't apparently

Weird isn't it. Only 'some' males are allowed to wear dresses now.

@PaleBlueMoonlight
I don't think it usually about mocking women (or that it is inherently about mocking women)

No, it's about mocking eachother for being dressed like women. My take was that a man dressing as a woman is seen as degrading because woman

[quote TreXX]@PaleBlueMoonlight
I don't think it usually about mocking women (or that it is inherently about mocking women)

No, it's about mocking eachother for being dressed like women. My take was that a man dressing as a woman is seen as degrading because woman

My experience of rugby type lads in dresses has usually been that it's totes hilare for them to do this because the VERY THOUGHT of heterosexual manly men being perceived as "lesser" by dressing in women's clothes is in itself intrinsically funny. I mean to do that you're practically GAY, right? And how can I be gay when I'm such a virile manly man? Etc etc etc yawn yawn.

Hectic morning here, but so fascinated to come back to all of your reactions. So many interesting points made. I noticed that it was the charity that was 'concerned' about offending the LGBT community, not the LGBT community itself complaining (unless stuff has gone on behind the scenes that we don't know about, of course.) Also, I believe it said that the men in question were contacting and LGBT charity to find out if they thought it was offensive. I wonder who they contacted and what the answer might be? More generally, I get quite irritated with the political concept of 'offence' to a group that probably doesn't all agree on whether they are offended or not. People are too busy tone-policing the world rather than dealing with actual structural inequality and discrimination.

Sorry, no time to RTFT so probably repeating what others have said much more eloquently than I can, but I don't think this is straightforward.
A men wearing a dress is not intrinsically offensive to anyone - no more than a woman wearing, say, a trouser suit.
But it most certainly can be. It isn't the act of wearing a dress in itself though, it's more about attitudes and behaviour whilst doing so, which in this case we don't have much information about. So we can't really judge, but it isn't beyond the bounds of possibility that it could be offensive.
But what leaps out at me is that for all the years this event has been going on, the charity don't seem to have considered the possibility that it might offend or demean women. It is only an issue now that it could upset "the LGBT community". Which, let's be honest, really means that it might upset a very small subset of men. So men potentially offending women = complete non issue, whereas men potentially upsetting some other men = big problem that must be stopped immediately. Now there's a surprise...

My experience of rugby type lads in dresses has usually been that it's totes hilare for them to do this because the VERY THOUGHT of heterosexual manly men being perceived as "lesser" by dressing in women's clothes is in itself intrinsically funny. I mean to do that you're practically GAY, right? And how can I be gay when I'm such a virile manly man? Etc etc etc yawn yawn.

Yes, the teams usually sit down and discuss at length how they can best enhance their alpha male hetro status while simultaneously mocking women and gay men.

I don't understand how wearing drag would make people give you money for charity?

They can't have it both ways, either dressing as a woman puts you under the trans umbrella and is stunning (like drag queens) or it's all bad.

Dresses is an improvement, imo.

My brother’s rugby team used to strip every stitch off and eat each other’s underpants.

I noticed that it was the charity that was 'concerned' about offending the LGBT community, not the LGBT community itself complaining (unless stuff has gone on behind the scenes that we don't know about, of course.)

Ooh that's interesting, I'd missed that OP. Because the stance of the charity itself could be construed as transphobic. A trans woman could say "Why on earth would I be offended by this? I am a woman and I dress as a woman, so why would I be offended by a man dressed as women? What are you implying?" This is just the thing that gets called out on Twitter by TRAs and the charity might find they're duly instructed to educate themselves and do better.

Surely they can wear what they want? I can't possibly see what this has to do with LGBT.

@Joystir59

I don't understand how wearing drag would make people give you money for charity?

Most fundraising stunts are weird. Why give someone else money to run a marathon, or have all their hair shaved off, or jump out of a plane? At least with a cake sale you get a piece of cake.

Men crossdressing can be very funny indeed (to me). Some Like It Hot is one of my favourite films.

How come it matters when Stonewall/Mermaids is offended by charity drag but it doesn’t matter when half the population is offended by having their safe spaces invaded?

@Joystir59

I don't understand how wearing drag would make people give you money for charity?

WOuldn't you pay them to go away if you were in a pub and they came in?

And then there's Tootsie.

... and my favourite, Alistair Sim in The Belles of St Trinian's (twice).