"men dressing in women's clothes is offensive...

[newrubylane]

... to the LGBT community."

www.worcesternews.co.uk/news/19657416.st-richards-warn-men-dressing-womens-clothes-fundraiser-offensive/

I don't even know where to start.

I really think you folks are overthinking it. It's done because they look funny to themselves as they look ridiculous, they really don't care about you and your thoughts on the matter, never put 2 seconds to consider what some women or trans women might feel on the subject. This thread probably has put more thought into the whole thing they have combined (all the participants throughout the years they have done it).

Men look absurd in a dress for many reasons, including:

1. They don't fit them.
2. Dresses are usually designed to show a little cleavage they clearly don't have instead have lots of hair poking out.
3. They don't walk and sit like a woman with a dress.
4. It is unlike every other standard male outfit.

and for these guys:
5) So they get noticed so they can raise money.

It's not about women at all, it's not a political statement, it is not social commentary, it's about making a fool of themselves for their own amusement and doing a good deed at the same time.

Fairly recent that women have been able to wear trousers, though.

We're in a slightly anomalous time where there simply isn't any particular everyday dress form that is seen as specifically male. Hence women can't really "cross-dress" at the moment.

The only thing I can really think of is being topless - hence why FTM transitioners do this so much. But that's not everyday wear...

Here's another historical example of women getting in trouble for cross-dressing:

Hic Mulier (Latin: This [manlike] Woman - hic being the masculine form of the demonstrative pronoun jokingly applied to the feminine noun) is the name of a pamphlet published in 1620 in England that condemned transvestitism. Women wearing men's apparel was becoming increasingly common in that period, causing concern to the pamphleteer and other social conservatives. The pamphlet argued that transvestitism was an affront to nature, The Bible, the Great chain of being, and society.

During the last few years of King James's reign, women were accused of dressing and behaving like men. This occurrence was relatively small-scale and brief. The term Hic Mulier, used as a sexual insult, was introduced by a preacher named Thomas Adams in a pamphlet he published in 1615. King James commented on the fashion of women dressing in men's clothing. In 1620, he commanded his clergy to teach, "against the insolencie of our women, and their wearing of broad brimmed hats, pointed dublets, their hair cut short or shorn, and some of them stilettoes or poinards, and such other trinckets of like moment." Hic Mulier and Haec Vir were outcomes of his command.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hic_Mulier

I don't see the problem. They're not mocking women or trying to be women they're making themselves look silly to raise a smile.

Are they mocking women, or men in dresses tho?

I think you're overthinking it, what about it suggests that they think being a woman is the worst thing they can think of?

Quite, I imagine they are poking fun at Andy the 6ft 5 112kg hairy back rower wobbling about in heels, a dress, wig and couple of balloons stuffed down his front. It is certainly not high brow humour but I doubt it is intended as a targeted degrading attack on women. If they really wanted to dress up as something that is the worse they can think of I imagine Jimmy Saville or Fred West would come to mind.

Really makes me lol that pretend women wearing dresses must be protected at all costs but the feelings of actual women regarding pretend women wearing dresses must be silenced because we’re nasty bigots.

I'm struck by the fact that although they've been doing this for more than 18 years they've only raised £40,000.

Makes me wonder whether people don't contribute much because they don't find men in frocks funny (for all the reasons upthread). One might wonder why the rugby club still do it when they raise so little by doing it.

@Shedbuilder. Because it’s really just an attention seeking piss up.

"against the insolencie of our women, and their wearing of broad brimmed hats, pointed dublets, their hair cut short or shorn, and some of them stilettoes or poinards, and such other trinckets of like moment."

This is TRAs co-opting womanface and calling it transface.

No-one gives a shit when women say drag offensive to women, but when male-born TRAs say the exact same thing is offensive to them, then it is offensive and must be stopped immediately.

It's the same as ever - when women are offended, its their fault for being offended, but when men are offended, people listen and apologise.

This isn't good for women (except to highlight the issue of actual womanface and the double-standards) because it is allowing TRAs to dictate which acts of womanface are offensive and which ones are fine. Women don't get a say at all.

It's the same as ever - when women are offended, its their fault for being offended, but when men are offended, people listen and apologise.

YY. It's obviously not up to women to decide what is offensive and what is not. Women are virtually invisible - it's like we're made out of hair and clothes and thin air!

You do see the converse sometimes - TRAs complaining about "ciswomen" not wearing makeup or feminine clothes and hence exhibiting their "cis privilege".

Women need to be doing some sex-coded fashion things that men can imitate, not just "being female".

Agree with Necessary that one of the reasons women dressed as men isn't seen as funny is because there isn't an everyday form of dress seen as exclusively male at the moment. ...But get women are quite happy to wear a false moustache or beard for laughs.

images.app.goo.gl/1QUi6wbo8PASCmkm7

Really makes me lol that pretend women wearing dresses must be protected at all costs but the feelings of actual women regarding pretend women wearing dresses must be silenced because we’re nasty bigots.

Yes, it really does show up the absurdity of the ideology.

@Signalbox

Isn’t this one of the things that many feminists and trans activists agree on? There’s loads of threads on here about how much people hate drag.

Weird how nothing changed when it was just feminists calling it out as offensive, isn't it?

This is an example of power and powerlessness. Not being able to see the powerlessness of one group compared to others surely describes the state of 'privilege'?

That link is Hannah Fry, in case anyone wondered.

Anyway, I would say the whole issue of why men dress as women for laughs is complex, and there are times I find it offensive, and times it doesn't bother me - context is important.

But the main point for me is that, as PPs have said, no-one cares if men dressing as women is offensive to women, and for it to be framed as offensive to trans people is a bit rich. If dressing in a gender non-conforming way is ok, then it's ok for everyone. I get why it might be painful for a trans woman to see this, but they don't get to police this. (Those of us women with more than our fair share of facial hair might wince a bit at that picture of Hannah Fry in a handlebar moustache, but that doesn't make it offensive.)

I guess it's because they don't look sufficiently stunning. Maybe if they'd made some effort with their make-up and more glamorous style choices... The problem is, they are making men who wear dresses look like... well... men in dresses.

Dressing up is fun - that's the bottom line isn't it? I've dressed up as Father Christmas before, I've dressed up as a male footballer (so I could wear a mullet) I've dressed up wearing fake moustaches. No one HAS to find it funny, no one HAS to donate to their cause - but that doesn't change the fact that men often look inherently ridiculous in women's clothes because they don't fit them at all well, they have hairy chests sticking out of them and they often choose the most hideous things they can find at the back of a charity shop and put their make up on really, really, badly.

Personally I think even Harry Styles looks ridiculous in a dress and if he can't pull it off then probably no bloke can. You really need tits and hips to make a dress look good IMO - which is why I don't wear dresses either, other things look far better on me.

@LonginesPrime

This is TRAs co-opting womanface and calling it transface.

No-one gives a shit when women say drag offensive to women, but when male-born TRAs say the exact same thing is offensive to them, then it is offensive and must be stopped immediately.

It's the same as ever - when women are offended, its their fault for being offended, but when men are offended, people listen and apologise.

This isn't good for women (except to highlight the issue of actual womanface and the double-standards) because it is allowing TRAs to dictate which acts of womanface are offensive and which ones are fine. Women don't get a say at all.

Absolutely this.

And I'd also like to note that as a lesbian drag doesn't personally offend me all that much - I mean, I haven't worn anything with a skirt since a family wedding in 1985. As a woman, however, it offends me mightily.

(Although this kind of straight rugby boy stupid, casually misogynistic yet curiously unmalicious dressing up actually irritates me less than the full-on RuPaul/drag queen cultural appropriation. There's sometimes a good deal of malice in that - "Look, I'm more of a woman than you'll ever be, this is how you do it properly" kind of shtick.)

Personally I think even Harry Styles looks ridiculous in a dress and if he can't pull it off then probably no bloke can. You really need tits and hips to make a dress look good IMO - which is why I don't wear dresses either, other things look far better on me.

I really love Billy Porter's dresses and I think they suit him. I don't think he looks like a man wearing a woman's dress, I think he looks like a man wearing his own, male, dress. Except perhaps for the mint green strapless one, which was cut correctly to fit the male form but still, somehow, didn't look right on him. But perhaps that's to do with me not being keen on mint green.

Interesting that it's offensive to men who feel like women if men who don't feel like women are wearing women's clothing, but nobody gave a shit if actual women were offended. I don't find it offensive and think everybody should wear the clothes that they want to wear, but I also don't think it's as hilariously funny as these guys seem to think it is.

Women are virtually invisible - it's like we're made out of hair and clothes and thin air!

Relevant meme.

There is a whole (short) thread on Hic Mulier if anyone is interested :)

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4341122-Hic-Mulier-and-Haec-Vir

Personally I think even Harry Styles looks ridiculous in a dress and if he can't pull it off then probably no bloke can.

I think he looks great in a dress and just the sort of guy I would have gone for in my yoof

I googled Billy Porter. That man is far better dressed than most people. His outfits are amazing.