"men dressing in women's clothes is offensive...

[newrubylane]

... to the LGBT community."

www.worcesternews.co.uk/news/19657416.st-richards-warn-men-dressing-womens-clothes-fundraiser-offensive/

I don't even know where to start.

Like being a woman is the worst thing they can think of. They see it as degrading.

Channelling Madonna there...

Girls can wear jeans
And cut their hair short
Wear shirts and boots
'Cause it's OK to be a boy
But for a boy to look like a girl is degrading
'Cause you think that being a girl is degrading
But secretly you'd love to know what it's like
Wouldn't you
What it feels like for a girl

A quite apposite song...

Hurt that's not supposed to show
And tears that fall when no one knows
When you're trying hard to be your best
Could you be a little less

And I posted the wrong version of the Madonna track. You don't want that video remix, you want the original album version:

@NecessaryScene
Yes, I hadn't heard that song so that's interesting!

[quote TreXX]@Fetarabbit
Ok maybe 'worst thing they can think of' is OTT but the point was they are mocking eachother being dressed as women - why do you think they see that as a bad thing?[/quote]
It's subverting and playing with gender. Proper po-mo!

It's poking fun at masculinity, which is more rigorously policed than femininity.

I don't see this as necessarily denigrating or mocking women, actually. Usually it's men who are fairly secure in their own sex and sexuality who are happy to play with these tropes. Of course some of them may be misogynists - it's not a rare thing to be, unfortunately.

I think my issue with drag is 1. some of the offensive names and 2. some of the offensive chat/jokes. Many/most drag doesn't bother me. As someone said above, wear what you like, so long as you don't try and claim womanhood/use women's spaces, etc.

@Auroreforet

I thought that the whole point was we can all dress how we want.

Men who want to be women think they ‘pass’ until they see these rugby players. This is like holding a mirror up to themselves.

The camera doesn’t lie.

Which is why I don’t do selfie’s!

That's a very astute observation. In the UK mft cross-dressing is generally done for laughs outside the transgender community. Pantomime Dames, charity fundraisers like this.

@ArabellaScott
Interesting points which I take on board. I think there is a lot of truth to them - however I still believe that underlying misogyny plays a big part in it too.

There’s a long tradition of men dressing up as women - in the Armed Forces particularly - and mostly to poke fun at one another, not because they look like women, or to the detriment of women, but because they look ridiculous.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6030767/World-War-Two-photos-showing-soldiers-dressed-drag-banned-not-damage-image.html

[quote borntobequiet]There’s a long tradition of men dressing up as women - in the Armed Forces particularly - and mostly to poke fun at one another, not because they look like women, or to the detriment of women, but because they look ridiculous.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6030767/World-War-Two-photos-showing-soldiers-dressed-drag-banned-not-damage-image.html[/quote]
Yes, but why is it ridiculous? When women dressing more masculine isn't? Indeed, a woman in a suit can be seen as sexy.

[quote borntobequiet]There’s a long tradition of men dressing up as women - in the Armed Forces particularly - and mostly to poke fun at one another, not because they look like women, or to the detriment of women, but because they look ridiculous.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6030767/World-War-Two-photos-showing-soldiers-dressed-drag-banned-not-damage-image.html[/quote]
I also think it’s always been an easy and cost effective fancy dress option rather than anything too targeted. Pre Amazon you’d only need to borrow a dress or nip to New Look.

If any man can dress as a woman how are the t community supposed to show how special they are, how they are more than just dressing up? I can understand why they feel offended but tough, acceptance without exception remember and you can't judge by appearances

Yes, but why is it ridiculous? When women dressing more masculine isn't? Indeed, a woman in a suit can be seen as sexy.

I think there are a lot of deeper answers, but one of the basic ones is that men do not have the right body shape for many sorts of feminine wear. The cut designed to highlight a female form ends up emphasising the lack of one.

And the converse can happen. We recently saw a male-cut suit looking ridiculous on a female figure on a red carpet.

What exactly are 'women's clothes'? Do they mean 'clothes reserved for women in previous generations but accepted by many people nowadays to actually be clothes than anyone can wear'? I'm assuming they don't mean things which look the same but are just tailored differently for women because they generally have wider hips and smaller shoulders. Entrenching the idea that clothes are just for one or other sex is worrisome and unhelpful .

All good points and food for thought.

Maybe it's because when I think about it I have the rugby ladzz from my school in mind. And they were a right bunch of misogynist pricks.

I agree that people can wear whatever they like, but I'm not generally comfortable with men wearing women's clothing for a laugh, it is demeaning towards women as always portrayed as ridiculous.

However it apparently doesn't matter what I, or other women, think about any of this.

These men should be prevented from wearing women's clothing because it might be upsetting for ...... other men who wear women's clothing

You couldn't make this shit up.

This charity is running a fun run with everyone dressed as Santa in early December. So there will be lots of women dressed as a man. Surely that's offensive too?

Either all men dressed as women is offensive or none.

I think it's a good conversation to have, TreXX. Open to discussing it!

There is the argument that as males are the more powerful, it's subverting that power by dressing to weaken or undermine their social capital/standing. Which yes, is reflecting the inherent misogyny in our society - males more powerful, women lesser.

Men who want to be women think they ‘pass’ until they see these rugby players. This is like holding a mirror up to themselves.The camera doesn’t lie
Nailed it. Some of them look my ex. but he's being his authentic self

I wonder if the question is whether one can separate the individual from the societal.

A male might dress as a woman to explore how he relates to those gender stereotypes he is traditionally barred from exploring. Or he might dress as a woman to ridicule women. Or because he is aroused by it. Or to play with power relationships. To shock or to release tension. Many reasons, I suppose.

Maybe the issue is the inherent power imbalance. But of course this is more a class based thing than an individual thing, which is why criticising an individual can be more complex.

So any person who was born a male can go into a woman's specific space & claim they are a female without dressing up
but it is seen as mocking a trans female if another man dresses in femal clothes?
Actually the only group in this that MIGHT have a right to complain is cis (arg!) women because this could be seen as mocking women rather than supersensitive others.
& I doubt that gay men or lesbians care (unless the lesbians are critical feminists with a sense of humour by pass)
Do trans object to drag acts?

@Hattie765

FFS it's too early for this shit.

It's always too early for this shit. 😂

I once volunteered in a charity shops and a bunch of lads came in asking for dresses to weat at a stag do. We had to dig out the larger sizes, and point out that they were unlikely to fit across the shoulders and chest. "Well the aim isn't to look good!"

Since the normalisation of trousers for women, it's less notable if a woman is wearing a man's suit (it just looks like they have a crap tailor) whereas a man wearing a clearly ill-fitting dress does provoke a different reaction.

I saw an interesting context recently in an episode of Say Yes To The Dress (I know, lockdown made me discover some shocking telly). It was the UK version and a bride brought her male luvvie mates, one of whom dressed up as Princess Di for the appointment. Basically had his hair done in her short "flick", 80s make up and a hideous 80s ballgown. It just said to me "I love the 80s, Princess Di and I work in the theatre".

Yes, but why is it ridiculous? When women dressing more masculine isn't? Indeed, a woman in a suit can be seen as sexy.

People pretending to be those that they patently aren’t are inherently funny. That’s a long established tradition too, for example in some Twelfth Night festivities. There’s nothing unusual about a woman in trousers or a trouser suit, so it’s not ridiculous, in fact is seen as modest in some circumstances as it doesn’t show the lower leg. See Hillary Clinton’s pantsuits (might be smart but not generally considered sexy).

Fairly recent that women have been able to wear trousers, though.

'The criticism, harassment and humiliation endured by women in bloomers eventually proved too much. Even Amelia Bloomer herself had dropped the fashion by 1859, in favour of the newly-invented crinoline, which she considered as a “sufficient reform”. The new hoop skirts were much lighter and “easier” to manage and women quickly forgot the Turkish dress alternative. Activists feared that the attention on women’s trousers detracted from other more pressing issues in the women’s movement debates. Once again, they began dressing more “lady-like” to secure crucial ballots such as the women’s right to vote. '

www.messynessychic.com/2021/03/17/the-not-so-straightforward-story-of-women-and-trousers/

I wonder if they hang around in bars?

Good point @Auroreforet, totally agree

@Signalbox

Isn’t this one of the things that many feminists and trans activists agree on? There’s loads of threads on here about how much people hate drag.

I never used to think about it, but nowadays drag rather offends me (and that's before you get onto the specific offence that most acts seem to cause over and above womanface).

But is there not an argument that the one occasion when it is fine for men to dress in drag is when it is "normal men" deliberately making fools out of themselves in order to raise money for a good cause?

Not giving my final opinion, just making an argument.