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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Christian parents sue government over school's transgender policies

194 replies

ArtemesiaK · 15/10/2021 10:34

Just wondered if anyone else had seen this?...

OP posts:
miltonj · 20/10/2021 15:04

@Gncq

We don't really have a "right wing Christian" subculture in the UK so this is an entirely American issue. In the UK bog standard homophobia and thinking that gender non conforming children should be sent to a clinic for medical intervention is our problem.
Oh we most certainly do unfortunately
bluegrass1 · 20/10/2021 17:40

What do you mean by "right-wing"? Christians who take scripture seriously and live by it, rather than bending to the pressures of the culture for the sake of an easier life?
Not sure what makes that "unfortunate".

NiceGerbil · 20/10/2021 21:21

Bluegrass thank you for explaining that we had different definitions of Christian.

Really interesting. I would like to ask more questions but I don't want you to feel got at!

NiceGerbil · 20/10/2021 21:25

Lobster do you want to give any further thought to your implication that plenty of RC people here (England/ UK ie topic of thread) are lacking in education or are a bit thick?

And that the ones who aren't uneducated or dim believe in transubstantiation...

They are pretty bold statements.

KimikosNightmare · 20/10/2021 21:27

Also, is there any other explanation of why childbirth is in general worse for us than for other mammals?

That's an interesting question. In my experience of seeing animals give birth cows can have a terrible time, sheep sometimes can too- lambing is a 24 hour a day job. Cats seem to have very little fuss or mess.

NiceGerbil · 20/10/2021 21:28

Or do you define RC as... If educated, believes in transubstantiation... ??

KimikosNightmare · 20/10/2021 21:34

@NiceGerbil

Or do you define RC as... If educated, believes in transubstantiation... ??
I think that was what was meant but I've no idea what it is supposed to mean.
bluegrass1 · 20/10/2021 21:39

@NiceGerbil

Bluegrass thank you for explaining that we had different definitions of Christian.

Really interesting. I would like to ask more questions but I don't want you to feel got at!

Do ask more questions if you want! :)
StillWeRise · 20/10/2021 22:25

@KimikosNightmare

Also, is there any other explanation of why childbirth is in general worse for us than for other mammals?

That's an interesting question. In my experience of seeing animals give birth cows can have a terrible time, sheep sometimes can too- lambing is a 24 hour a day job. Cats seem to have very little fuss or mess.

As far as humans are concerned I would think that if you believed in evolution (as apparently most christians do) then the usual explanation (a compromise between large brain size and upright stance, partly addressed by prolonged infancy- 4th trimester- meaning difficulty at delivery) would suffice. Re cows and sheep vs cats, I would guess cows and sheep have been bred for traits that may or may not include ease of delivery.
NiceGerbil · 21/10/2021 00:47

Bluegrass thank you!

Two I think-

  1. I understand totally now your earlier points and your definition of/ feeling about your faith. What being Christian means. And so when you talk about Christians you mean those who have a deep faith and believe in certain tenets.

There will be plenty of adherents in other groups etc who include in their definition a deep belief in something you don't believe. Or don't feel is fundamental. Maybe a behaviour, something in the Bible, I mean could be anything.

They would not see you as a Christian.

What are your thoughts on that? Relaxed as you do your own thing? That they are wrong? Something else? Really interested!

  1. Say suddenly something visible came which showed whether people believed that man was created in God's image. Like a blue finger or I mean anything!

That would show who was Christian in your eyes and who was not.

Clearly many many people who are active in churches, go every week, donate, volunteer etc etc would not have that belief.

For you personally-

IF you are part of a church/ group etc that meets your belief. And some there did not believe that. What would you want to happen in your own group? About them.

The main organised denominations do need on bums on seats. For donations volunteers money from will etc.

RC church is immensely wealthy for eg.

Loads not believers. If they let them stay, does that make them... Not real Christian orgs?

If they kick them all out- never going to happen. Generally religions want to get people not get rid.

Maybe your view anyway is that other branches are not the real deal so of no matter?

Just I think you said don't talk to secular people about this much.
I rarely have an opportunity where I feel... That it will be overall positive all round to discuss things with the v religious people I know.

LobsterNapkin · 21/10/2021 03:51

@NiceGerbil

Lobster do you want to give any further thought to your implication that plenty of RC people here (England/ UK ie topic of thread) are lacking in education or are a bit thick?

And that the ones who aren't uneducated or dim believe in transubstantiation...

They are pretty bold statements.

That's not what I implied at all.
LobsterNapkin · 21/10/2021 03:54

I don't think people who can't or prefer not to be involved in the mathematics of string theory are dim either, or even the ones who aren't interested in reading about it. If you were worried about that.

LobsterNapkin · 21/10/2021 04:00

@bluegrass1

From what I've seen, conservative evangelical churches are generally very concerned with teaching their congregation how to study the Bible for themselves - to look at the context, the genre, the original audience, to look at how it fits into the Bible story as a whole, to spot repeated themes and words to see what the main point of the passage is. Liberal churches will pluck verses out of context to prop their humanist sermons, and often have a very low view of scripture.
I would say that's quite a generalization, on both sides. Lots of liberal churches try to do those things as well, though they tend to see Scripture differently But lots of conservative evangelical pastors are quite happy to use the Bible out of context for their own purposes too.

But nonetheless, conservative evangelicals tend to see the Bible rather differently than people in the ancient or medieval church, and moderns in general think about images and text differently than earlier people did.

NiceGerbil · 21/10/2021 04:05

'Just like most regular people aren't thinking about the mathematical elements of cosmology or can't interpret the observational information we have that supports the existence of black holes. And it's not very reasonable to expect that, many don't have the time, many don't have the ability, and lots of people aren't that interested. So they tend to believe simplifies or even fairly inaccurate ideas about those topics.

More educated Catholics however do often believe in transubstantiation.'

Transubstantiation is a belief. Nothing to do with analysing scientific concepts. And a pretty major RC thing.

And can you support your claim that 'More educated Catholics however do often believe in transubstantiation'. More than... Less educated RC people? Let's keep focus on England as per thread.

LobsterNapkin · 21/10/2021 04:36

@NiceGerbil

'Just like most regular people aren't thinking about the mathematical elements of cosmology or can't interpret the observational information we have that supports the existence of black holes. And it's not very reasonable to expect that, many don't have the time, many don't have the ability, and lots of people aren't that interested. So they tend to believe simplifies or even fairly inaccurate ideas about those topics.

More educated Catholics however do often believe in transubstantiation.'

Transubstantiation is a belief. Nothing to do with analysing scientific concepts. And a pretty major RC thing.

And can you support your claim that 'More educated Catholics however do often believe in transubstantiation'. More than... Less educated RC people? Let's keep focus on England as per thread.

Yes and no. The Catholic Church asks for a fairly simple affirmation around the eucharist, that it really changes into the body and blood of Christ. They don't ask people to get too far into what that means though they don't want them to say things that acre clearly untrue like it changes appearance.

This goes along with their general approach which is that no one has to really understand everything in an academic sort of way in order to be Catholic. That's not what being Catholic is most fundamentally about.

Most Catholics in countries that are settled and have things like Sunday schools will teach at this basic level. (If you are in a country like China of course even that may not be possible.) Lots of people are happy to practice their Catholicism at that level. It's not what's important to them about their religious community.

However, Catholicism has a very highly developed philosophical system and if they are inclined and have access people are encouraged to learn about many concepts like transubstantiation in a more systematic way. (Not sure what science has to do with it, this is philosophy and theology.) Among people who do this you are likely to find a much more definite assent to ideas like transubstantiation, much more engagement with it.

To some extent you might be able to put it in terms of formal education, though that's not really what I was thinking about. I have lot of Catholic extended family on my fathers side, none of whom have much formal education. Among them you'd find some with quite odd or incorrect ideas about what the Catholic church believes and some who just don't care about those details much. When I went to university however I knew quite a few highly educated Catholics who were academics, and they were much more likely to see transubstantiation as important and they knew what it meant and implied and why it was believed.

The Alisdair MacIntyres and Chestertons and Marshal McLuhans of the Catholic world tend to be fairly orthodox.

bluegrass1 · 21/10/2021 15:03

@NiceGerbil

Bluegrass thank you!

Two I think-

  1. I understand totally now your earlier points and your definition of/ feeling about your faith. What being Christian means. And so when you talk about Christians you mean those who have a deep faith and believe in certain tenets.

There will be plenty of adherents in other groups etc who include in their definition a deep belief in something you don't believe. Or don't feel is fundamental. Maybe a behaviour, something in the Bible, I mean could be anything.

They would not see you as a Christian.

What are your thoughts on that? Relaxed as you do your own thing? That they are wrong? Something else? Really interested!

  1. Say suddenly something visible came which showed whether people believed that man was created in God's image. Like a blue finger or I mean anything!

That would show who was Christian in your eyes and who was not.

Clearly many many people who are active in churches, go every week, donate, volunteer etc etc would not have that belief.

For you personally-

IF you are part of a church/ group etc that meets your belief. And some there did not believe that. What would you want to happen in your own group? About them.

The main organised denominations do need on bums on seats. For donations volunteers money from will etc.

RC church is immensely wealthy for eg.

Loads not believers. If they let them stay, does that make them... Not real Christian orgs?

If they kick them all out- never going to happen. Generally religions want to get people not get rid.

Maybe your view anyway is that other branches are not the real deal so of no matter?

Just I think you said don't talk to secular people about this much.
I rarely have an opportunity where I feel... That it will be overall positive all round to discuss things with the v religious people I know.

For the first question, it's not so much that the definition of "Christian" will vary from church to church and hang on different theological issues. No, this isn't my personal definition of a Christian, it is what all Christian churches will hold as their statement of faith. Indeed, if a church denies these creeds they are normally a cult or an off-shoot of Christianity (such as Mormons and JWs, who indeed deny Jesus's divinity and the salvific power of the cross, meaning they cannot be classed as Christian denominations).

True Christian denominations may differ on some peripheral theological issues (such as baptism, the eucharist, how to do worship, etc...) but the basic creeds are absolutely fundamental, and any Church presenting as a "Christian Church" will show their allegiance to these creeds in their official statement of faith. Otherwise, they aren't a church. Even if in practise they don't do a good job of it, or their preachers diverge into strange doctrines on the pulpit, churches still officially adhere to these creeds if they wish to be classed as a Christian church. Indeed I don't know of a single Church denomination who would formally state that you can be a Christian without believing in these creeds, which are the Gospel. The Gospel is so fundamental to Christianity, you can see it in the 2nd paragraph on the Wikipedia entry of "Christianity".
"The creeds of various Christian denominations generally hold in common Jesus as the Son of God—the Logos incarnated—who ministered, suffered, and died on a cross, but rose from the dead for the salvation of mankind; and referred to as the gospel, meaning the "good news". "

Indeed, Christianity IS the religion that preaches the Gospel of Jesus Christ, so you simply cannot be a Christian if you reject the Gospel, because in rejecting the Gospel you are rejecting Christianity. This is not a controversial statement at all.

Now of course, anyone is free to say they are a "Christian", even if they don't believe in the Gospel. In the same way, I could say I am a Muslim even though I don't believe in the tenets of Islam. But that doesn't make you that religion. In that case, you are merely a "nominal" Christian, using the word without believing in the substance of that word. It doesn't change the definition of Christian.

If you want to know what the Gospel actually is, here is a brief summary of it (see attached) and a more detailed version (click through the steps one by one) twowaystolive.com/2wtl/mobile/#creation

For the second question, if people are attending church but don't believe in the Gospel, I would want them to be taught the Gospel and come to accept it for themselves. Turning up to church on a Sunday, donating some money, Christening your children... the truth is, it is all worthless if you don't actually have a relationship with God. It won't count one jot towards your salvation. What matters for church-goers is that they come to believe in the Lord Jesus, rely on his death and resurrection, and as a result enjoy a relationship with the Creator God.

Christian parents sue government over school's transgender policies
NiceGerbil · 21/10/2021 22:51

Oops posted too soon! Contd...

That has value imo in and if itself. The accessibility, regularity, ritual - familiarity/ comfort. That's worthwhile I think, very much so. It's a very different angle we're coming from though! And neither of our views are going to impact anything so I'm happy to not see eye to eye. However I appreciate your reply and understand your position even if I take a different one!

NiceGerbil · 21/10/2021 23:00

Oh the first part hadn't posted after all..

Arrggh!

Try and remember the first part..

Bluegrass thank you for your answer. Understand your perspective totally. Enjoying this conversation with you.

First part was about those who go regularly and donate volunteer etc. Those things can and do help others in real life

Also the community that exists in a congregation. The people you get to know. Friendly faces and conversation. That the priest/ vicar should be available to talk to about things on your mind. The comfort of the familiarity of the service. A regular pattern in life. For those who are lonely/ struggling. That can be a high point, a comfort. Uplifting. Sociable, feeling not alone.

NiceGerbil · 21/10/2021 23:11

I have always felt that the new testament was a strong message of love, tolerance. Kindness. Not judging others etc.

That has always been for me the part of my (v religious) primary school the part that resonated. From young I never believed. Just my personality I'm sure. But that message was to me clear and important. A template for living life. Iyswim.

And neither of our views will change anything in the world and I doubt we will see eye to eye.

I do think that message is a really good one to hear. And outside of religion it's barely there. So if people go to church to celebrate that message. To be thankful for it and Jesus teaching it and living according to it. Then that's to me also a positive thing.

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