Christian parents sue government over school's transgender policies

[ArtemesiaK]

Just wondered if anyone else had seen this?...

@NiceGerbil

And abortion.

David Amess also campaigned against abortion. Whether, like Stonewall, you were against gay marriage, is not the point. The point is we must be allowed to debate these things. We must be allowed to discuss them. By having vigorous opposing opinions on any point identifies flaws in our own thinking and forces us to sharpen our arguments or, in parliament, should make for better laws.

But why should this family not be able to live by their faith? Or are only Muslim women who cannot share spaces with men allowed because they are a more politically correct oppressed group? Worldwide Christians are the most oppressed religious grouping.

I found the article unclear on what the couple said had happened at the school, and what the teachers had said / done that they objected to, to the extent that they decided to remove and home school both their DC.

Dozer I wonder if that is because language around this whole topic is so strangled in a mire of redefinition and traps.

I suspect if they tried to explain in clear language on mumsnet then they would be banned - banned for their blasphemy against gender ideology.

@Lovelyricepudding

I suspect if they tried to explain in clear language on mumsnet then they would be banned - banned for their blasphemy against gender ideology.

That could get MN legally into hot water as religious belief is a protected characteristic under the EA, whereas self Id is not.

@Lovelyricepudding

Dozer I wonder if that is because language around this whole topic is so strangled in a mire of redefinition and traps.

I also wonder how much self-censorship is going on of material that wouldn't be problematic but the uncertainty creates a 'just in case' use of language that adds to the problem.

This is, of course, one of the harms of this febrile environment and one of the ways to pave the road to greater implementation of authoritarianism and control frameworks.

"So. Is there any point to this thread apart from telling women off? "
What? I posted because I thought people on this forum would be interested that some parents are challenging the gender ideology that is being taught in schools. I know I'm not as intelligent as many of those on this thread (just a degree equivalent in design) but I didn't realise the thread would be about telling women off :(
I hope more people start challenging the genderists in schools. Perhaps some other religions would get less flak than Christians...

This is not just about boys wearing dresses. This case is about an ideology that is now embedded in schools, local authorities, and Church of England leadership, and is causing serious long-term harm to thousands of children.

We believe it is wrong to encourage very young children to embrace transgenderism. Boys are boys and girls are girls. Gender dysphoria is something we as Christians need to address with love and compassion, but not in the sphere of a primary school environment

I agree with them here. I don't see an issue with a boy wearing a dress, but I do believe it should be because boys and girls can wear what they like; clothes don't define them and gender stereotypes are a made up social construct that limits us, rather than ah well boy in a dress is a girl.

Isn’t Keira Bell’s lawyer anti-abortion? I can’t remember the details but I think agrees with stuff lots of us here wouldn’t.

@ItsRainingProstateOwners

Isn’t Keira Bell’s lawyer anti-abortion? I can’t remember the details but I think agrees with stuff lots of us here wouldn’t.

And?

I read "boy in a dress" as a way of describing the situation without referencing transideology. Like a man with a gold lame purse in the women's changing room, man in makeup in the female hospital ward, a naked man with long hair and a beard in the women's communal showers.

@ItsRainingProstateOwners

Isn’t Keira Bell’s lawyer anti-abortion? I can’t remember the details but I think agrees with stuff lots of us here wouldn’t.

There are a number of posters on FWR who are anti-abortion, iirc, and accept it as a personal decision for the woman involved.

They're local to me, the mum and I have met a few times. Awful irony for them is that the home ed groups they tried couldn't have given less of a toss what a child wears so they didn't get much support there either.

Do you really think the parents were bothered by the dress, or the lie that the child has changed biological sex?

I think you've missed the point. No one is saying you must have a cervix to be a woman. The gender critical position is only women have or started life with cervices but clearly there are women who have had hysterectomies. No one is saying such women stop being women.

No I'm not missing the point, I've seen posts on MN and other sites specifically saying you're not a woman if you don't have a cervix. Maybe I notice as it is relevant to me and you just interpret it in the way you assume people mean.

Apart from that why go on about having a cervix as if it the only thing you can think of that a woman has that a man doesn't? It seems to be the go to body part in any discussion about sex.

@CharlieParley There are several large hard-to-reach groups of women who do not understand that "cervix-haver" or "anyone with a cervix" includes them. If this language is used, instead of the much simpler "all women aged between 25 and 64 are invited...", these women will therefore not respond to their invitation letters and definitely not to health campaigns designed to improve the uptake of invitations to cervical cancer screening, which has been falling for over ten years.

So do you agree with me that the constant references to the cervix is not helpful and it is ridiculous that it seems to have become an obsession?

[quote PurgatoryOfPotholes]Women with a learning disability in England have an average life expectancy of 65, GP data from NHS Digital have shown—18 years lower than those without.1

The inequality is greater in women than men. Men with a learning disability had an average life expectancy of 66 in 2017-18, compared with 80 in men without a recorded disability.

Patients with learning disabilities also had lower rates of cancer screening, most notably in cervical screening for women: only 31% had smear tests, compared with 73.2% of those without a learning disability.

www.bmj.com/content/364/bmj.l404[/quote]
thank you for this evidence
now can we send it to Keir Starmer and David Lammy

@sharksarecool

I think there is some really disappointing hypocrisy from some people on this thread.

TRAs dismiss the GC viewpoint without even listening, call people bigoted for disagreeing with them, refuse to share podiums, suggest that certain opinions are too awful to be allowed. Can people not see their own hypocrisy in doing exactly the same thing to this Christan couple?

Everything they have said alligns entirely with the standard GC position as regularly expressed on this board. And yet, because you disagree with them about the nature of God, you dismiss them as bigots and exclude them from your feminism.

They have the same protected characteristic as Maya Forstater. Either we respect other people's right to belief or we dont. Which is it?

I agree

Don't know how the cervix debate ended up on a thread about schools.... Perhaps you could start a thread about your concerns, @ancientgran ? You'd probably get more answers.

Having read the article I can see that what appears to be their specific objection (children being told they can change sex and supported in social transition) is something GC feinists would agree with. However I do wonder why they couldn't just say to their child, as many of us have had to-' yes, some people do believe that, but they are mistaken And it's kind/polite not to pick arguements with them about it (especially if it's your teacher).'
What I dont see them saying is that there are safeguarding and cultural problems that flow from accepting the fiction that people can change sex. I wonder why not, given that most people will easily understand that.
I also noticed that they seem to be describing their children as reassuringly boyish and I suspect are quite keen that they adhere to sex role stereotypes. So we would differ there too.
I really think it's OK to agree with people about one thing and disagree with them about another. Religious belief isn't contagious or even heritable, and I should know.

I am sure if the teacher was teaching it along the lines of 'some people believe you have a soul which is attached to roles and stereotype ascribed to each sex and they believe that sometimes this soul/essence is attached to the opposite sex to their own sex. We know you can't change sex but these believers try to alter their body and presentation to match that is those they believe their soul is attached to.' Them I am sure she wouldn't have an issue.

ItsRainingProstateOwners
Isn’t Keira Bell’s lawyer anti-abortion? I can’t remember the details but I think agrees with stuff lots of us here wouldn’t.

And?

Well that’s my point, what does it matter? It’s important that the case is brought.

@Lifeinthelastlane

Do you really think the parents were bothered by the dress, or the lie that the child has changed biological sex?

The parents are quoted as saying that simply wearing a dress wasn't the issue.

But as they aren't a Muslim woman who can be conveniently co-opted in to the "single sex space" argument they are getting short shrift from some posters on here.

The article was unclear.

The Times should have reported, in clear terms, what the school did or said to their DC that the parents who withdrew their sons objected to.

@Year6dramallama

I sympathise with this family. Not a Christian but come from a Christian family and know lots socially/through relatives. Very very few of them are even slightly right-of-centre. Majority are committed left wing socialists. Christian right wing as a movement isn't really a thing here (UK), is it?

There are some right wing Christians, but in my church the vast, vast majority are radically left wing and many quietly donate large sums to charity, serve in homeless shelters (and yes maybe question what their left wing friends think about trans issues).

It’s disappointing that the image and association of Trump and his ilk waving a bible around has obliterated real Christian experience in the UK.