Academic Freedom, Harassment and GC academics - ask me any questions

[ProfJoPhoenix]

Hi Mumsnetters

Jo Phoenix here - as in the academic cancelled by Essex and harassed by colleagues at the OU. I decided to join mumsnet because I know that several women here are supportive of what it is that we (GC academics) are going through and dealing with. I thought I would start a thread - a sort of ask me any question thread. I'll be making an announcement on twitter (@JoPhoenix1) on Sunday morning that you might find interesting. What's happened to Kathleen Stock has left all of us reeling and I am going to do something that, I hope, will help. Watch this space.

@foxgoosefinch

No, *@suggestionsplease1*, I think your post is a bogus reading of “intersectionality”. Oppression is not a top trumps switch about set of replaceable tiers with a “fluctuating and multidimensional hierarchical structure”: that’s treating real people as if you’re playing a computer game. I’s also an excellent example of the way current identity politics took the term “intersectional” right out of its original contexts and drastically misunderstood it.

The whole point of intersections of structural oppression is that you can’t just switch them in and out and invert them like a game. They aren’t all fluctuating and multidimensional. They’re real, not bits of game play to mess around with.

If you want to use an analogy between race and sex/gender, get it right and accurate, so it doesn’t just look like a silly debating point.

Crikey, you're really doubling down on your naivety, it seems.

Can you really think of no examples in history where the oppressed have become the oppressors and vice versa?

suggestions I don't know what you mean by 'nice try' - are you mistaking me for a different poster? The only thing I am 'trying' to do is clarify your question which contains wording that has shown to be defined ambiguously or in different ways. I find your reaction to this quite odd.

So just to be clear - you can't be clear what you're asking or which people you are asking about, but you will judge whether you think the response answers what you think you are asking (but won't define)?

Do you understand why that doesn't work?
Surely it would be simpler to just set out unambiguously what it is you are actually asking? Yet it seems like you don't know and just want 'any information' on 'any' group of people who may be male or female?

(That's not how you test a hypothesis. It's actually quite dangerous to do 'fishing expeditions' in this way to draw conclusions - you risk ending up with the Texas sharpshooter fallacy with your data.)

@Piapiano

I don't think we can get anywhere with this discussion with *@suggestionsplease1* until she/he/they explains what the definition of a woman is.

Also "I have given complete freedom for Jo or any other academic to answer this question" comes across as both arrogant and patronising.

Quite happy for you to feel I am both.

Still waiting for answers - just put all the evidence down - some will be problematic due to definitions no doubt, and we can work together to discount that.

We're waiting for an answer to "what is a woman"?

you can't be clear what you're asking or which people you are asking about, but you will judge whether you think the response answers what you think you are asking (but won't define)?

🤣🤣

@MonsignorMirth

suggestions I don't know what you mean by 'nice try' - are you mistaking me for a different poster? The only thing I am 'trying' to do is clarify your question which contains wording that has shown to be defined ambiguously or in different ways. I find your reaction to this quite odd.

So just to be clear - you can't be clear what you're asking or which people you are asking about, but you will judge whether you think the response answers what you think you are asking (but won't define)?

Do you understand why that doesn't work?
Surely it would be simpler to just set out unambiguously what it is you are actually asking? Yet it seems like you don't know and just want 'any information' on 'any' group of people who may be male or female?

(That's not how you test a hypothesis. It's actually quite dangerous to do 'fishing expeditions' in this way to draw conclusions - you risk ending up with the Texas sharpshooter fallacy with your data.)

I am asking for the evidence - rigorous, robust, scientific evidence, that indicates that there has been a negative impact for women in those countries which have adopted gender recognition processes based on the principle of self-determination, and where these have been in place for several years.

I am happy to consider any evidence at all - no matter what definition of women has been given, and no matter what subject criteria has been looked at.

I understand people may be unwilling to accept evidence that contains certain definitions and very happy for that to be considered.

Why do you think I am testing a hypothesis? Don't be silly - I have set no hypothesis - I have asked several questions.

Can you really think of no examples in history where the oppressed have become the oppressors and vice versa?

Except that has no relation to your post, which was a rather bad faith and ill fitting pseudo analogy trying to compare Murray’s Bell Curve with women who are being publicly harassed and threatened for factual statements. You also don’t appear to know as much about Murray’s argument and it’s reception as you ought to, so I fear it’s not me who’s naive.

Keep your focus on the actual argument you yourself are making, and what I said about a false analogy - can you come up with a better one?

Nah, I'm off to bed. If you don't know what a woman is there's no point engaging.

Gah - apologies for all the autocorrect typos. Bedtime beckons…

Still waiting for answers - just put all the evidence down - some will be problematic due to definitions no doubt, and we can work together to discount that.

You still haven't defined what you mean by 'evidence'. I posted links to several threads which had examples of women coming to harm from self-ID policies in other countries, but you said they didn't count because anecdotal data, whilst unfortunately persuasive to many in the general public, and used to justify discrimination, has very limited scientific value.

What sort of evidence are you looking for exactly if not examples of how women have been harmed?

I am asking for the evidence - rigorous, robust, scientific evidence, that indicates that there has been a negative impact for women in those countries which have adopted gender recognition processes based on the principle of self-determination, and where these have been in place for several years.

But actual women being harmed don't count as evidence?

Suggestions : those of us who have lived our lives with female bodies, subjected body and mind to the oppressions of a patriarchy, know intrinsically that it is important we get to keep the safety of our female only spaces.

Women cannot be ignored, erased, forced to say that 2 + 2 = 5. It’s not ok.

Male bodied people have always oppressed female bodied people.

It astonishes me that liberal people supported the MeToo movement but cannot see that women deserve safe spaces - free of male bodied people - and the right to state who we are.

@suggestionsplease1
Do just go away, you are so transparently asking all this in bad faith.

And... back to the topic in question. Prof Jo Phoenix has raised over £50k in 18 hours. Wonder why? 🤔😉🤣🤣

£50k? That's amazing.

@OldCrone

I am asking for the evidence - rigorous, robust, scientific evidence, that indicates that there has been a negative impact for women in those countries which have adopted gender recognition processes based on the principle of self-determination, and where these have been in place for several years.

But actual women being harmed don't count as evidence?

Honestly, you couldn't make it up.

Here are zillions of reports of women harmed.

That's not scienteefic. 😁

@MonsignorMirth

What evidence have you found that this has had a negative impact for women in these countries? Please could you clearly define what exactly you mean by 'women' in your question, and what dataset could be reliably referred to to delineate this group?

Unless you are prepared to state what you think a woman is, all the rest is flim flam, suggestionsplease

But for the lurkers:
Ireland introduces self-id in 2015.
Big increase in the Women’s prison population in Ireland from 2015 onwards.

What on earth could have caused this?

A) suddenly and inexplicably Irish women became more criminal from 2015. Bad Irish women
Or
B) a few men with their male patterns of criminality self-id as "women" and are housed in the tiny women's estate, massively skewing the figures.

Which is most likely??

Because the men who have Self-IDed are now recorded as "women", their crimes are recorded as 'women's' crimes, corrupting the data set - and gender activists go on to claim that there are 'no' problems caused by self-id.

Anyway, I have been delighted to be able to do some gardening for Professor Phoenix tonight in the legal action she is bringing against the OU and to see she has over £53,000 gladdens the heart. Courage calls to courage, Jo!

I am happy to consider any evidence at all - no matter what definition of women has been given, and no matter what subject criteria has been looked at.

So you are asking for things that have happened to some people? And you don't mind what, because you're not asking a specific question?

Thank you for making it clear how much we desperately need to educate on science literacy, at least...

Because the men who have Self-IDed are now recorded as "women", their crimes are recorded as 'women's' crimes, corrupting the data set - and gender activists go on to claim that there are 'no' problems caused by self-id.

And the sexual assaults on women prisoners by the males who identify as 'women' don't count as evidence of harm to women for reasons which are only known to suggestionsplease, who refuses to explain why these assaults don't count as harm to women from self-ID.

£54, 055 now.

That's some achievement. Over £54k in less than two days.

Hmmm. Disappointed but not surprised to return to this thread this morning and see all of this.
BUT! The fundraising is AWESOME and speaks volumes.
Hope Jo hasn’t been put off communicating with us on here now. Imagine she’s pretty busy at the mo, so may not have time to work painstakingly through all the guff that’s detracted from the focus of the thread.
Happy Tuesday y’all!

Self id represents a significant change in the relationship between the citizen and the state. The state confers benefits on individuals according to their sex. I see the GRC akin to the process of being recognised as disabled or an immigrant applying for citizenship.

As self id represents a change to the current law it's not beholden on women to prove it's harmful. It's on proponents of self id to prove it's not harmful. And so far I've seen no compelling evidence. It's not good enough to say "well it works in Malta" because Malta is a fundamentally different country to the UK. We need to work through all of the scenarios that self id will affect. Single sex spaces, health, prisons, education, statistics, etc.

This is not (just) an academic exercise. Policy and law is not made on the basis of academic thought and study alone. No one in the UK has made a compelling, cogent argument for self id. They resort to attacking even the gentlest of questioners as transphobic or thick.

The troll on this thread lasted 5 minutes before implicitly or explicitly attacking the characters and intellect of other posters. I just don't engage with people like that anymore except when I'm drunk tweeting

@ProfJoPhoenix may I send you a pm about an area of academia I'm concerned about please?

I have a suggestion for you SuggestionsPlease - go and listen to the Nolan investigation on bbc iPlayer. It’s exhaustively researched and absolutely shocking in the evidence it provides of women, children, gay people and wider society suffering harm as a result of the unevidenced ideology that you support.

That's some achievement. Over £54k in less than two days.

Wow, well done everyone and especially @ProfJoPhoenix