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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Academic Freedom, Harassment and GC academics - ask me any questions

315 replies

ProfJoPhoenix · 15/10/2021 09:49

Hi Mumsnetters

Jo Phoenix here - as in the academic cancelled by Essex and harassed by colleagues at the OU. I decided to join mumsnet because I know that several women here are supportive of what it is that we (GC academics) are going through and dealing with. I thought I would start a thread - a sort of ask me any question thread. I'll be making an announcement on twitter (@JoPhoenix1) on Sunday morning that you might find interesting. What's happened to Kathleen Stock has left all of us reeling and I am going to do something that, I hope, will help. Watch this space.

OP posts:
SpringCrocus · 22/10/2021 10:00

Do bore off, @suggestionsplease1.
You are getting beyond tedious, now.

RedDogsBeg · 22/10/2021 10:16

Or they will say 'they were promoted to LGBT people' - well yes, if you want to know about suicidality in LGBT people you generally ask them, just like if you want to know about women's experience of domestic abuse you ask women rather that 80 year old men in care homes, or dogs, or your goldfish.

If you want to find out about the negative and dangerous impact on placing male prisoners, most notably rapists and sex offenders, into the female prison estate you would ask the female prisoners and those working with those female prisoners, yet you, @suggestionsplease1 dismissed this as 'anecdotal' and therefore not evidence, and here you claiming the opposite when it comes to something you want to highlight.

As ever one side makes up the rules to suit them.

suggestionsplease1 · 22/10/2021 14:10

@MonsignorMirth

It is also common for people to point out flaws with sampling, that people have self-selected to fill in the survey (I didn't realise you could compel people to fill in forms but you learn a new thing every day on the feminist boards, right?)

Stop, stop, my third-hand embarrassment can't take it.
"self-selection bias" isn't a phenomenon feminists have made up!

If you want to critique something someone has actually said, you need to quote the text/speech in context rather than pretend you understood it and 'summarise' it with the helpful 'blah blah it's boring' addition.

Remember, suggestions - you were the one asking for data on 'things' (you couldn't define) happening to 'people' (you couldn't define). You refused to answer whether my definition of 'women' would be acceptable to you as an example of this, so we are left none the wiser as to what it is you think words mean.

www.transgendertrend.com/the-suicide-myth/

See here for ref. to self-selection

"We don’t believe that the suicide history of just 27 self-selected trans people is sufficiently large for parents to make life-changing decisions for their children."

(The research actually includes 120 trans people, but the 27 referred to are under the age of 26)

(This, despite this research the statement refers to finding statistically significant evidence for trans people at greatly elevated risk of suicidality):

www.queerfutures.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/RARE_Research_Report_PACE_2015.pdf
All rates of young Trans people in our sample are particularly high
when compared with their cisgender counterparts, with about half
reporting lifetime suicide attempts and over 80% indicating lifetime
suicide ideation and self-harm ideation and experience. These findings
are consistent with findings that suggest increased suicide risk for
Trans
young people (D’Augelli et al., 2005; Wang et al., 2012; Xavier et
al., 2007), possibly associated with gender non-conformity (Fitzpatrick
et al., 2005; LeVasseur et al., 2013).*

Of course self selection it is not something that GC feminists made up, how could it be, given its ubiquity? But it is presented on the transgendertrend page in such a way that a study should be dismissed altogether because of this self-selection.

The reality is that the vast majority of surveys are self-selection - people choose to fill them in - they select themselves. You go to the supermarket and you see someone doing a survey and you think 'That sounds interesting, I'll do that' then you have biased the survey because you want to fill it in and there are another 10 people that walked past that didn't want to fill it in - so we don't know what they think.

If you've got a mechanism for forcing those other 10 people to fill in a form that they don't want to (with no incentives), then well done you, you will have solved the self-selection bias problem for surveys.

So it's disingenuous to write-off studies of this nature, considering that it is an issue that affects the vast, vast majority of surveys carried out. Women who fill in domestic abuse information have also self-selected, etc etc.

There is also the huge problem of the tiny minority of people that identify as trans for survey purposes - it is simply not feasible for most researchers to not directly interact with LGBT communities and instead rely on non-targeted large populations studies as they would need several hundred thousand completed surveys to have any chance of identifying meaningful trends in the data (hence the American National Crime Victimisation study had to pool data from 2 years to get nearly 500,000 random participants in order to achieve the statistical significance and be able to state with confidence that transgender people are more than four times as likely to be victims of violent crimes compared to people who are not transgender.)

There is simply not the money to operate like this easily. So people who complain that a 'non-probability sampling method' is used (again referred to several times on that transgendertrend site) are setting an impossible barrier and ignoring what is actually good information about this issue given the limitations these studies will always face when trying to recruit participants.

Referring to your last point, I have asked for any data at all on the issue.

I will accept data that defines women as 'adult human females according to chromosome' or that has a larger definition that extends to trans women / those that self ID as women. I will accept data that does not define 'women' at all and that may lead to a larger discussion about what that particular study reveals.

Unlike people disputing evidence on trans suicides who put up barrier after barrier after barrier so they can be blind to the evidence, I am phrasing it like this so that you have no barriers at all to the provision of evidence.

But the fact is, no-one as yet on this thread has put down information about any statistically significant studies at all, irrespective of what definition of 'woman' is used, which indicate women have faced increased harm / negative impact as a result of a country introducing gender recognition processes based on the principle of self-determination

MonsignorMirth · 22/10/2021 14:14

I can't quite parse your last para there but I agree with your conclusion.

MonsignorMirth · 22/10/2021 14:17

I will accept data that defines women as 'adult human females according to chromosome' or that has a larger definition that extends to trans women / those that self ID as women.

It took you several days simply to attempt to clarify this.
By "self ID as women" do you mean in reference to your first definition - so people that specifically self-identify as "adult human females according to chromosome"? Or are you using a different definition of "women" here?

OldCrone · 22/10/2021 15:26

@suggestionsplease1
GIDS say:
Yet it is also true that many young people who present to gender services are not necessarily distressed. Young people who are well supported by their family and receiving ongoing psychological support, seem to cope well with their gender incongruence (de Vries et al, 2015). Similarly, suicide is extremely rare.
gids.nhs.uk/evidence-base

They also say:
Suicidality in young people attending the GIDS is similar to that of young people referred to child and adolescent mental health services. It is not helpful to suggest that suicidality is an inevitable part of this condition.
gids.nhs.uk/news-events/2018-10-15/our-response-full-itv-series-butterfly

FOIs have asked about suicide attempts and suicides amongst those who are seen by GIDS or on the waiting list:
tavistockandportman.nhs.uk/documents/1253/FOI_18-19180_GIDS_Patients_Suicide_Data.pdf
tavistockandportman.nhs.uk/documents/1882/FOI_19-20375_GIDS_suicide_rate_2018-19__2019-20.pdf

2 suicides since 2016 for those on the waiting list (in 2016 and 2017, none since then), and 4 attempted suicides.

For GIDS patients, one suicide since 2016 and 3 attempted suicides.

NCBlossom · 22/10/2021 23:26

There is a hierarchy of research, and there are weak studies and strong studies. This is all part of a robust academia though isn’t it where objectivity is important, as much as we can. There isn’t a uniform, all beliefs or all evidence or all studies are equally credible. Otherwise we’d all be in a real muddle, and we wouldn’t have any idea what was going on for example with suicide rates.

It’s really important to be objective and researcher bias is a factor. Survey’s are particularly weak in that they can’t really be generalised.

ProfJoPhoenix · 23/10/2021 09:40

[quote WarriorN]@ProfJoPhoenix may I send you a pm about an area of academia I'm concerned about please? [/quote]
Yes. Please email me at [email protected]

OP posts:
ProfJoPhoenix · 23/10/2021 10:02

@suggestionsplease1

Hi Jo, thanks for posting this AMA.

I've got some questions relating to academic freedom that you are talking about and clearly feel is being restricted right now.

Historically some academics at universities have explored very controversial topics and have cited scientific evidence and freedom of speech to do so. These topics have included things like race and intelligence, race and criminality etc. The academics exploring these issues have claimed, when students turn their backs on them during lectures (eg Charles Murray, co-author of The Bell Curve, when lecturing at Vermont Uni), that people are simply not comfortable with the truth.

  1. Do you see any parallels with your own situation?
  1. Do you feel it is right for Charles Murray to be given a platform by universities?
  1. Do you think students who protested peacefully when Charles Murray arrived at their lecture hall had any right to do so?
  1. Do you think the students who peacefully protested were guilty of bullying Charles Murray?
  1. Do you feel that the students of ethnic minorities were right to feel concerned about the subject matter that Charles Murray wished to discuss in his lectures?
  1. Do you feel that the content could have lead to increased general public discrimination / harassment of ethnic groups?
  1. Does it matter if it did lead to increased public discrimination / harassment of ethnic groups?

I am sure as an academic you will place a great deal of importance upon research and evidence. As you will be aware several countries have adopted gender recognition processes based on the principle of self-determination, and these have been in place for several years now for some - eg, Ireland, 2015.

  1. What evidence have you found that this has had a negative impact for women in these countries?
Apologies for not responding earlier. I have been a little busy this week.

You ask some interesting questions, but before I answer them I would like to know what discipline you are working from within. You raise Charles Murray as a particularly problematic individuals and cite that there may be parallels. You do realise, don't you, that this is offensive. Racism is not, in UK law, a protected belief or philosophy. In fact it is precisely the opposite. I spent a great deal of my time as a student in the 1980s read and re-reading Charles Murray. We did this in order to challenge and discredit his ideas. So let me be very direct in responding to your questions. I will do so assuming that you are not a good faith reader and that whatever I say here is likely to end up elsewhere.

  1. Do I see any parallels. No. See above. I support trans rights and always have. I write about sex, violence and victimisation and youth justice. I am well known for examining and researching the unintended consequences of policy reform that has, as its explicit intention, the attempt to 'make things better' for poor and marginalised groups (women in prostitution, childs in trouble, children who are sexually exploited) but that often ends up doing exactly the opposite. I have publicly criticised Stonewall and suggested that the specific reforms to the GRA known as 'self-ID' are problematic especially in the context of prisons. THAT IS ALL. How is this similar to Charles Murray. Please, before you take someone one for arguing for supposedly controversial view, READ THEIR WORK. (The caps are emphasis, not shouting)
  1. As long as we live in a democracy, everyone has the right to peacefully protest.
  1. I know nothing of student protests against Charles Murray and so would not care to comment.
  1. See above
  1. I was concerned about the subject matter that CM was putting out there. I imagine ethnic minority students would be.
  1. The presumption of this question is problematic. I am not a psychologist nor am I a cultural analyst. I can say that I have always found the idea that the general public get infected with bad ideas and then act on them rather dismissive of 'the general public' and rather treats them like blank slates who just absorb, without questioning, what 'the powerful say'. Far, far too simplistic.
  1. I do not understand your question. Discrimination and harassment are unlawful. Racism is not a protected belief. Anything that promotes racism and discrimination and harassment is bad. Me writing from within a gender critical theoretical perspective is nothing like CM. So, I do not know what you are asking. It is non-sense.
  1. I can not speak to global issues. The research I do is based in the UK. But, the suggestion that 'everyone else is doing it, so it must be alright' is a rather poor basis of evidence. It is probably better to find evidence of harm (and good) in the specific context of THIS country before making policy FOR this country because that is how social policy work. It needs to be congnizant of the social specificity.

I hope I have answered your questions so that this thread can now move one.

OP posts:
ProfJoPhoenix · 23/10/2021 10:04

Dear Gardeners

Apologies for being absent these last few days, especially when there have been so many message. It will take me a while to get around to answering all of them.

I just wanted to pop in and say HELLO AND WOW!

65,000 carrots, turnips and swedes.

Thank you to everyone who has helped.

I still need 15000 more, but 65K is fabulous for less than a week.

Keep your eyes on Tuesday's Telegraph as Joan Smith has done an article.

And, please, if you can give more after your next pay day, please do. We are within site of the goal.

Thanks!

J

OP posts:
334bu · 23/10/2021 11:10

Thank you for updating us and for answering suggestions " questions" so thoroughly.

Cailin66 · 23/10/2021 12:28

Wow, she’s at 65k, fantastic response, more gardening needed. I emailed her and Jo is a really lovely woman.

NCBlossom · 23/10/2021 17:48

Just in response to @suggestionsplease1 last point. Self identification has been passed in some countries, such as Ireland. I have many friends and family there and no one is aware of what this could mean. Or does mean. It is already causing problems, one of them being a violent sex offender being imprisoned with other women in Limerick Prison, the offender has to have extra security, paid for by the tax payer in order to protect other female prisoners. I don’t think that is a great example of success. And that is only one aspect. Ireland majority of schools are segregated on the basis of sex, and again no one is aware of the implications because they haven’t been tested.

RhymesWithOrange · 23/10/2021 18:21

Sending much love @ProfJoPhoenix. It was such a pleasure to meet you at FiLiA, you are extraordinary.

ProfJoPhoenix · 24/10/2021 09:25

@RhymesWithOrange

Sending much love *@ProfJoPhoenix*. It was such a pleasure to meet you at FiLiA, you are extraordinary.
Right back at you!
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