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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Academic Freedom, Harassment and GC academics - ask me any questions

315 replies

ProfJoPhoenix · 15/10/2021 09:49

Hi Mumsnetters

Jo Phoenix here - as in the academic cancelled by Essex and harassed by colleagues at the OU. I decided to join mumsnet because I know that several women here are supportive of what it is that we (GC academics) are going through and dealing with. I thought I would start a thread - a sort of ask me any question thread. I'll be making an announcement on twitter (@JoPhoenix1) on Sunday morning that you might find interesting. What's happened to Kathleen Stock has left all of us reeling and I am going to do something that, I hope, will help. Watch this space.

OP posts:
AlfonsoTheDinosaur · 18/10/2021 09:30

I'm with you, Professor Phoenix.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 18/10/2021 09:39

Over £43,000 in 24 hours!

I often keep the tab open for these crowd funders as it cheers me up no end to read the heartfelt comments by so many people horrified at the bullying and intimidation of women by the usual suspects.

AlwaysColdHands · 18/10/2021 13:26

Thanks for coming back to us Jo, we’re with you 💪🏻

RealDinosaurofBarnardCastle · 18/10/2021 13:40

I’ve donated Jo, keep going, we’re with you.

lionheart · 18/10/2021 13:43

Delighted to see how well this is going.

Flowers
RealDinosaurofBarnardCastle · 18/10/2021 13:52

[quote aliasundercover]Tam Blaxter's poetry. I share this link without further comment:
www.datableedzine.com/tam-blaxter-issue-11[/quote]
Fucking hell, that’s amazing

suggestionsplease1 · 18/10/2021 21:20

Hi Jo, thanks for posting this AMA.

I've got some questions relating to academic freedom that you are talking about and clearly feel is being restricted right now.

Historically some academics at universities have explored very controversial topics and have cited scientific evidence and freedom of speech to do so. These topics have included things like race and intelligence, race and criminality etc. The academics exploring these issues have claimed, when students turn their backs on them during lectures (eg Charles Murray, co-author of The Bell Curve, when lecturing at Vermont Uni), that people are simply not comfortable with the truth.

  1. Do you see any parallels with your own situation?
  1. Do you feel it is right for Charles Murray to be given a platform by universities?
  1. Do you think students who protested peacefully when Charles Murray arrived at their lecture hall had any right to do so?
  1. Do you think the students who peacefully protested were guilty of bullying Charles Murray?
  1. Do you feel that the students of ethnic minorities were right to feel concerned about the subject matter that Charles Murray wished to discuss in his lectures?
  1. Do you feel that the content could have lead to increased general public discrimination / harassment of ethnic groups?
  1. Does it matter if it did lead to increased public discrimination / harassment of ethnic groups?

I am sure as an academic you will place a great deal of importance upon research and evidence. As you will be aware several countries have adopted gender recognition processes based on the principle of self-determination, and these have been in place for several years now for some - eg, Ireland, 2015.

  1. What evidence have you found that this has had a negative impact for women in these countries?
OldCrone · 18/10/2021 22:19

8. What evidence have you found that this has had a negative impact for women in these countries?

You'll find plenty of evidence of negative impacts on women in these countries on threads on here.

You could start with this one:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3348290-It-will-never-happen-resource-thread

Also search on here for anything to do with women's prisons in Ireland, Canada or California.

For example:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3746471-Defence-lawyer-says-that-the-Gender-Recognition-Act-has-placed-the-State-in-an-impossible-position-with-regard-to-transgender-prisoners

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3756852-Correctional-Service-of-Canada-transgender-prisoners-housed-in-womens-prisons

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4212959-Inmates-say-guards-have-warned-them-that-men-are-coming-and-to-expect-sexual-violence

suggestionsplease1 · 18/10/2021 22:44

As a distinguished professor I am sure that Jo Phoenix will be aware that anecdotal data, whilst unfortunately persuasive to many in the general public, and used to justify discrimination, has very limited scientific value.

I am sure she places emphasis on rigorous and robust endeavours to investigate point 8.:

What evidence have you found that this has had a negative impact for women in these countries?

And I'd like to know what evidence has been found.

MonsignorMirth · 18/10/2021 22:47

What evidence have you found that this has had a negative impact for women in these countries?
Please could you clearly define what exactly you mean by 'women' in your question, and what dataset could be reliably referred to to delineate this group?

Throckmorton · 18/10/2021 22:53

Professor Phoenix, you're an absolute legend! I'm getting my gardening boots on Smile

foxgoosefinch · 18/10/2021 23:00

@suggestionsplease1 - it’s highly disingenuous to make that kind of comparisons with race, since you’re intentionally glossing over the fact that the structural analogy doesn’t work.

“White oppressor vs non-white people” very clearly does not map onto “female oppressors vs the non-female oppressed”. It’s been pointed out many times that this analogy which presents women as the oppressors of men is not only is highly offensive in terms of its racial politics, but rather obviously and glaringly shows up the falsities of that position.

No doubt you think it’s a very clever analogy, but as I recall Murray’s book was freely available in bookshops, reviewed in the press, and widely debated as an argument - I recall a PSE lesson in secondary school in which we were asked to debate and disprove the claims in it - since in those days people regarded controversial opinions as things to be disproved by rational argument, not mass hysteria and cancellation.

OldCrone · 18/10/2021 23:01

@suggestionsplease1

As a distinguished professor I am sure that Jo Phoenix will be aware that anecdotal data, whilst unfortunately persuasive to many in the general public, and used to justify discrimination, has very limited scientific value.

I am sure she places emphasis on rigorous and robust endeavours to investigate point 8.:

What evidence have you found that this has had a negative impact for women in these countries?

And I'd like to know what evidence has been found.

Is this a reply to my post?

Women prisoners being raped when males are placed in their prisons are 'anecdotal data' with 'limited scientific value'? And are not evidence of a negative impact on women?

Can you give some examples (hypothetical since you seem to believe they don't actually exist) of what you would accept as 'evidence'? If women being raped don't count as evidence of a negative impact, what does count in your view?

suggestionsplease1 · 18/10/2021 23:01

@MonsignorMirth

What evidence have you found that this has had a negative impact for women in these countries? Please could you clearly define what exactly you mean by 'women' in your question, and what dataset could be reliably referred to to delineate this group?
I am quite happy for Jo Phoenix / researchers of studies cited to determine the parameters for this question - more than happy for multiple datasets to be provided with different definitions - just put everything you have down on this thread and we can take a look.
Alektopteryx · 18/10/2021 23:03

I like that suggestionsplease1 has the bollocks confidence to challenge Jo Phoenix Grin

MonsignorMirth · 18/10/2021 23:09

I am quite happy for Jo Phoenix / researchers of studies cited to determine the parameters for this question - more than happy for multiple datasets to be provided with different definitions - just put everything you have down on this thread and we can take a look.

Sorry, I don't understand this - when you asked the question about women, how were you defining women? It can't really be answered unless you determine the parameters of your own question?
It sounds like you're not sure what an 'acceptable' answer to you would look like - what group of people it would cover. That's not a good foundation for research - you need to know what you are looking for!

titchy · 18/10/2021 23:09

and we can take a look.

We?!!!! Grin

Perhaps you could share the academic credentials you and your buddies have to judge the merit of what is cited?

suggestionsplease1 · 18/10/2021 23:12

[quote foxgoosefinch]@suggestionsplease1 - it’s highly disingenuous to make that kind of comparisons with race, since you’re intentionally glossing over the fact that the structural analogy doesn’t work.

“White oppressor vs non-white people” very clearly does not map onto “female oppressors vs the non-female oppressed”. It’s been pointed out many times that this analogy which presents women as the oppressors of men is not only is highly offensive in terms of its racial politics, but rather obviously and glaringly shows up the falsities of that position.

No doubt you think it’s a very clever analogy, but as I recall Murray’s book was freely available in bookshops, reviewed in the press, and widely debated as an argument - I recall a PSE lesson in secondary school in which we were asked to debate and disprove the claims in it - since in those days people regarded controversial opinions as things to be disproved by rational argument, not mass hysteria and cancellation.[/quote]
Wow, how wrong can you be on the structural analogy?!

Do you think it is only possible for a 1st category to oppress a 2nd category?! As if they were linear items on a 2 item scale?!

Have you set yourself up as the determiner and definer of categories?!!

Do you see no scope for multiple categories existing on a fluctuating and multi-dimensional hierarchical structure where the (for eg.) 2nd, 3rd, 21st category from the top may oppress the (for eg.) 15th, 18th, 21st category down (at that particular moment in time, in that country and cultural context?)

ArabellaScott · 18/10/2021 23:15

we can take a look.

Hmm
ArabellaScott · 18/10/2021 23:16

Do you see no scope for multiple categories existing on a fluctuating and multi-dimensional hierarchical structure where the (for eg.) 2nd, 3rd, 21st category from the top may oppress the (for eg.) 15th, 18th, 21st category down (at that particular moment in time, in that country and cultural context?)

Are you all right, do you need a wee sit down, maybe?

suggestionsplease1 · 18/10/2021 23:17

@MonsignorMirth

I am quite happy for Jo Phoenix / researchers of studies cited to determine the parameters for this question - more than happy for multiple datasets to be provided with different definitions - just put everything you have down on this thread and we can take a look.

Sorry, I don't understand this - when you asked the question about women, how were you defining women? It can't really be answered unless you determine the parameters of your own question?
It sounds like you're not sure what an 'acceptable' answer to you would look like - what group of people it would cover. That's not a good foundation for research - you need to know what you are looking for!

Ha nice try, but try again. I have given complete freedom for Jo, or any other academic to answer this question (this is an AMA, I did read the question correctly, right?)

There is complete freedom for Jo or any other academic to cite whatever evidence, however 'women' are defined in that particular evidence. dataset, study etc and we can explore how suitable it is from that point, of if it should be rejected from consideration because of problems related to definition.

But we need to see the evidence we're dealing with, right?

Just put it all down! Go for it!

suggestionsplease1 · 18/10/2021 23:22

'or' if it should be rejected, not 'if'

foxgoosefinch · 18/10/2021 23:22

No, @suggestionsplease1, I think your post is a bogus reading of “intersectionality”. Oppression is not a top trumps switch about set of replaceable tiers with a “fluctuating and multidimensional hierarchical structure”: that’s treating real people as if you’re playing a computer game. I’s also an excellent example of the way current identity politics took the term “intersectional” right out of its original contexts and drastically misunderstood it.

The whole point of intersections of structural oppression is that you can’t just switch them in and out and invert them like a game. They aren’t all fluctuating and multidimensional. They’re real, not bits of game play to mess around with.

If you want to use an analogy between race and sex/gender, get it right and accurate, so it doesn’t just look like a silly debating point.

Alektopteryx · 18/10/2021 23:24

(this is an AMA, I did read the question correctly, right?)

Well, no. The title of the thread is:

"Academic Freedom, Harassment and GC academics - ask me any questions"

Piapiano · 18/10/2021 23:49

I don't think we can get anywhere with this discussion with @suggestionsplease1 until she/he/they explains what the definition of a woman is.

Also "I have given complete freedom for Jo or any other academic to answer this question" comes across as both arrogant and patronising.

Swipe left for the next trending thread