Question Time right now!

[Seeingadistance]

Prof Robert Winston has just stated very clearly that it is not possible to change sex.

In relation to freedom of speech and Kathleen Stock.

Such a knowledgeable and clear summary, @NecessaryScene - thanks for that.

But this bit:

So the government introduced the GRA2004 to give more complete recognition, including the ability for a transwoman to marry a man, despite gay marriage still being illegal.

Does that mean that once the GRA was signed into law, trans people actually had more rights than gay people when it came to being able to marry who you wanted, until same-sex marriage was passed into law?

Thanks for the thread, I've watched it.
The labour mp is shadow minister of sport!

Labour woman did actually grudgingly acknowledge the conflict of rights in that she said there was a need for the weighing rights, and that was a normal process. She must have forgotten that her party has been studiously trying to ignore any discussion of that and some have been trying to make it hateful to discuss that. Nandy was not interested in weighing rights when she said the paedophile rapist should be allowed in a women's prison. I was really annoyed by her saying things e need a respectful debate etc when her party has contributed to the toxicity and horror show by being both twaw and nodebate, while treating Rosie duffield so horribly.

Penny Mordaunt was pretty sensible. The conservatives are realising they need to be on team sensible on this.

It's annoying that no one properly answered the bloke's question 'what did she actually say. Bruce could have explained a bit better. Hopefully people were looking up her book on amazon.

Winston has come a long way since the gra parliamentary debates in 2003.

They spent quite a long time on it. That's it for nodebate. Dead a buried.

Just watched it back.
It's about 39.45 minutes in on the link posted earlier.
Pity Robert Winston did not get another chance to comment. And loads of time given to Alison waffling.

I listened to McGovern on the radio the other day, I actually felt sorry for her, the presenter was really trying to get her to say what she thought about born male athletes competing as female against born female athletes, which in normal times would be a fair question and one she probably holds a robust opinion on in private.
The problem is the minute she says anything at all that could be construed as even vaguely not supporting born males competing as female against born females in any sport, her career will be over and she will be inundated with a deluge of hate which will almost certainly contain threats of violence and sexual assault against herself and her family members.

@frumpety

I listened to McGovern on the radio the other day, I actually felt sorry for her, the presenter was really trying to get her to say what she thought about born male athletes competing as female against born female athletes, which in normal times would be a fair question and one she probably holds a robust opinion on in private. The problem is the minute she says anything at all that could be construed as even vaguely not supporting born males competing as female against born females in any sport, her career will be over and she will be inundated with a deluge of hate which will almost certainly contain threats of violence and sexual assault against herself and her family members.

She’ll have looked at what happened to Rosie Duffield and thought, “No way amI going to sabotage my plans to be a career politician”.

And loads of time given to Alison waffling

Tiresome for us and surely damaging for her and her party. Who could listen to it without recognising it as vapid waffle?

Does that mean that once the GRA was signed into law, trans people actually had more rights than gay people when it came to being able to marry who you wanted, until same-sex marriage was passed into law?

Yes, but civil partnerships happened in 2004 too, so the effective difference was minimal. Not sure which act passed first.

Gay marriage rights were basically available in 2 ways from 2004 - "don't call it marriage" or "pretend it's heterosexual".

In Monty Python terms, it is very clear today who are the Sensible Party and who are the Silly Party. Sadly, the Lib-Dems are no longer Slightly Silly and have graduated to full-on Loony in the slab of concrete.

@NecessaryScene

I was talking about Greenham Common recently, in the context of current demonstrations etc. Neither of my dc had a clue what I was talking about. I would have said they are pretty intelligent, had a reasonable education.

I think there is a problem in that new technology means young people genuinely have less knowledge of recent history. They're living in a "now" bubble with infinite content.

When I was young, there were 4 TV channels, which often had content repeated from previous decades, and other curated content, which meant that you soaked up culture with historical context.

I was born in the 70s, and WWII seemed like a long way away, but I still had a general picture of what the last 50 years were like from TV (and books). I'm not sure current generations get that so much.

I agree

think there is a problem in that new technology means young people genuinely have less knowledge of recent history. They're living in a "now" bubble with infinite content.

When I was young, there were 4 TV channels, which often had content repeated from previous decades, and other curated content, which meant that you soaked up culture with historical context.

I was born in the 70s, and WWII seemed like a long way away, but I still had a general picture of what the last 50 years were like from TV (and books). I'm not sure current generations get that so much.

This is a really good point. I'd had similar thoughts about how they live in an a-historical 'now,' bubble and don't actually know that things they think are facts were only invented fairly recently. But I hadn't thought properly about how our childhpods gave us a better grounding in the last few decades. In the 80s I watched a lot of telly that was made in the 60s, and there as always black and white films on, even from the 30s.

Very much the case. And not helped by current TV.

You have the much-panned Darling Buds of May remake, with a multiracial and perhaps gender-diverse Kent in the 1950s. And also showing now the repeat of the terrible Back In Time For School which ignores the historical realities of single-sex education and a racist curriculum, pretending that Empire Day was all jolly good inclusive fun for all, etc.

She’ll have looked at what happened to Rosie Duffield and thought, “No way amI going to sabotage my plans to be a career politician”

@Warmduscher I agree there will be an element of that, but how many female politicians feel safe speaking about this subject and have the support of their Party if they do ?

The Labour woman has that wide-eyed look of someone who has NO idea what they're talking about and NO conviction of any of the absolute word-salad coming out of her mouth. Anne McElvoy had it right when she used the word 'fudge' in relation to how Labour have approached and continue to approach the whole issue, so wide-eyed Labour woman trying to twist that by saying she doesn't think 'the law fudges' the issue is disingenuous. McElvoy wasn't talking about 'the law', she was talking about Labour's inability and reluctance to even enter into debate, choosing only to parrot the 'transwomen are women/transmen are men' rhetoric that's used ONLY in an attempt to shut down any deviance from the ideology underpinning transgender ideology.

*'ideas underpinning transgender ideology' that was supposed to say.

@Viviennemary

Thats good. I agree. But I still think trans men and trans women should have rights.

They do have rights. What more rights do trans people need other than -

(1) The right not to be discriminated against for being trans

(2) The exact same rights as any other male or female bodied person has to use single sex spaces appropriate for their sex.

The right to access third spaces to make sure that they know that we know that they're special is a privilege we could also consider. It may be demanded if we ever get to a point where women are sick of transmen bring testosterone into female spaces, or if male trans people are sick of male violence in male spaces.

@bd67thSaysReinstateLangCleg

"Alison Labour" is Alison McGovern, MP for Wirral South and Shadow Minister for Sports. She went to an all-girl grammar school and has birthed at least one child, so you'd think she'd know what a woman is. She's the chair of Progress, which is the major "blue Labour" faction backing Starmer. Just goes to show that Labour "moderates" are just as useless as the other factions further left within the party.

She’s my MP and I usually have a lot of time for her. I will be writing to her.

Funny how the student didn't have a clue about the purpose of a university education. Somehow we've a group of smug self centred young adults who are convinced that their late teenage witterings constitute intellectual thought and debate and that all challenge must be hate speech (and I know that all students aren't like this - but too many of the power takers appear to be)
It doesn't bode well for the future if these are the limits of their intellectual insights.

It's just so frustrating to hear them talking about 'safety' and centring the discussion purely around trans people's feelings, rather than a) a woman who is currently getting death threats for expressing her opinion, which still very much supports trans rights, and b) the concerns of women who don't want male offenders to take advantages of changes in order to cause harm to them.

Like, there are actual safety concerns here outside of the rights of trans people to feel validated.

Got it on good information the Labour woman is privatly GC!

@Blessex

And why aren’t people challenging statements such as ‘science has shown people can be born into the wrong body’. If I was on there - these are the statements I would to.

I think there are examples of people who say they were born in the wrong body and were happier after transitioning. Does that count?

I suppose Tom happy for them that they think someone saying ‘no’ is a threat and that they should be super scared. It’s a sign that they haven’t really ever been threatened, bullied, assaulted, lived in fear. I wonder if any of them have lived through a childhood of nighttime flits to escape DV, and stints of hiding in a refuge with their mum?

It would help if Alison McGovern didn't misstate the law. Gender Identity is not a protected characteristic so it isn't protected in law. Gender Reassignment is.

I wonder if that drama student will ever have the self awareness to look back at challenging a world class reproductive biologist over whether or not you can change sex.

I think the KS situation has worried a lot of universities. I had quite a debate with my old uni on academic freedom on this topic and the role of Stonewall. I suspect most academics will not be happy about these inroads into the ability to debate challenging subjects. Academics are not there to make students feel comfortable - they are there to advance knowledge.

@Jaysmith71

Very much the case. And not helped by current TV.

You have the much-panned Darling Buds of May remake, with a multiracial and perhaps gender-diverse Kent in the 1950s. And also showing now the repeat of the terrible Back In Time For School which ignores the historical realities of single-sex education and a racist curriculum, pretending that Empire Day was all jolly good inclusive fun for all, etc.

I really like Back in Time for School! I think it's openly critical of the racist curriculum and also acknowledged the whole Empire thing. Obviously in this day and age they included more diverse students than would have been in the school but I do think they handle the controversial issues of the time. Realistically, at that time ,'Empire Day' probably would have been a celebration for all the students in that particular school.

At least Fiona Bruce said that Kathleen Stock had been physically threatened by people on balaclavas and needed security. Then Prof Winston and the hate mail. It put the vague bleating about “feeling safe” from the student/prospective student into perspective.

I remember Ladybird Flies The World, in which Peter and Jane visit Africa, and their dad's friend explains how he has to watch his black workers all the time or they won't work because they're all lazy.